Chertoff to Hannity: Removing 10~11M ILLEGALS too expensive and impractical

...HANNITY: Because you had made a controversial statement, and you seem to be backing off of it now, and it was that people that are here illegally, that they all ought to be sent back.

And it seems like now you've sort of backed off that position a little bit, because there are million that we estimate that are in this country illegally.

CHERTOFF: ...I also recognize we've got, according to some estimates, 10 to 11 million illegals already in this country working. And the cost of identifying all of those people and sending them back would be stupendous. It would be billions and billions of dollars...

HANNITY: Why — in that sense, aren't you really rewarding those that didn't respect our laws and sovereignty? In other words, OK, you're saying, you came into this country illegally.

Now that we've identified you, we're going to let you even stay longer and make money, and then you can go back in three to six years.

Why don't we say, no, you're here illegally, you didn't respect our laws, you ought to go home? Why don't we just say that?

I mean, as a practical matter, we've got to identify these people and pull them out of the shadows.

Now, this is not an amnesty. This is not — the president's proposal is not a path to citizenship. It's clearly temporary, and it clearly envisions people who would have to commit to go back....

retaining and sustaining American values, language, and culture,

The three are not a triumvirate, it is duplicitious to claim that they are. American VALUES are freedom, hard work, individualism, personal responsibility, self-reliance, and independence, rooted in a moral ethos that says "this is right and this is wrong" (even if everyone did not always DO what was right, we could at least AGREE on what was right).

American culture and language are distinctively English in their roots, but the grand thing about America is that the values TRANSCEND culture. This is where the Buchananites and the majority of immigration freepers have it DEAD WRONG. It is not our culture and language that gave rise to the values, but vice versa. In fact, we have retained some of the culture, and all of the language, and kissed most of the values goodbye. It is extremely hypocritical to act as if the three are bound together, and even more silly to act as though the language and culture are the key elements, and without those, the values will die. That way of thinking is elitist bullshit.

One of the key values of historical Western Civ is the respect for human life, and is one of the big reasons we have this debate in the first place. It is gone, and has ramifications. We are an AGING population because we are first and foremost concerned with our own trinkets and comfort, so limit our number of kids or kill them outright as a culture. If we did not import people, we would have a declining population and would have an asyptotically ageing labor pool. I thank GOD that the labor pool we draw from at least shares the rudiments of a Christian value system (though I wonder just what the virgin of Guadeloupe has to do with all of it), rather than a bunch of ragheads who believe that to kill an infidel is to offer a service to God.

If you are worried about maintaining the culture, you might think about the fact that the mark of a weak, flaccid and impotent culture is that it draws in and wants to "protect" itself, while a vibrant, young, growing culture transforms those it comes in contact with, even when it is disproportionately represented.

What a stupid statement..."too expensive"...

If Congress wants to get rid of the illegals they need only pass a law making it a federal offense to employ anyone who is not legally in this country. And, pass a second law, making it illegal for any federal/state/local governmental agency and/or not-for-profit to provide support to anyone who is illegally in this country.

If our leadership had the "stones" we could have the illegals running for the border, on their own dime, in just a few days.

It is extremely hypocritical to act as if the three are bound together, and even more silly to act as though the language and culture are the key elements, and without those, the values will die. That way of thinking is elitist bullshit.

You're parsing words, chronic_loser; the three are intimately intertwined, in every culture. First, there is a unique identity which comes through a people united under one language. This allows unimpeded communication, which serves unify, rather than divide. Shared communication allows a people to develop and define their culture and agree upon the values and standards upon which to build and sustain their civilization as unique....and which later allows them to be a cohesive group of one people, not multi-cultural, multi-national identities, which serve no purpose, other than to divide....something you simply either choose to not understand, or if you do understand, then are willing to look over or ignore.

I think its a number of things:

Bush really believes in his "guest worker" program

Certain industries want cheap labor they can exploit and they contribute to both parties

Nobody wants to appear to be anti-Hispanic or racist.

People are afraid not to pander to certain racist groups like the Aztlan bunch.

There are religious groups which provide these people with "safe houses" and support open borders.

The general public although they oppose this stuff, simply have not made a loud enough roar over what should be a national scandal.

There are people (Rove?) who believe that by pandering to illegal aliens, who can't vote, the Repubs will pick up votes from Hispanic Ameican citizens - who have consistently indicated in polls they oppose, by a significant majority, special teatment for illegal invaders.

We have to a better job of communicating to those cretins in Washington that border defense is a significant responsibility of ANY government and this situation will simply not be tolerated in the future - regardless of what the Los Angeles Times, or New York Times, or MacDonalds thinks. If that doesn't work, the Minuteman project should be escalated.

The Feds could EASILY stop this by simply cutting off all federal funds to any local jurisdiction which directs its law-enforcement personnel not to cooperate with INS when an illegal is apprehended or detected, by moving U.S. military units to our southern borders (The Mexican military has actually violated OUR border) to stop this, and by enacting laws so onerous that they will assure any corporation which knowingly emplyes illegals is put out of business.

We could also stop this by ending the mindless, insane, suicidal drive twoards a bi-lingual society by adopting English as our official alanguage, requiring all new citizens to have a working knowledge of and stop requring government forms on any level to be written in Spanish and English.

If there IS a ganuine need for more owrkers from overseas, we should raise our immigration quotas across the board for ALL countries instead of providing one ehtnic group - the Hispanics - with a monopoly on admissions. By doing so, we would encourage assimilation, prevent the creation of a bifurcated society and culture, and recruit individauls who want to be American citizins for reason other than attaching themselves to a milch cow which permit them to route American dollars to some foreign rathole.

NO, Einstein. You made the FALSE statement that the values of a country were predicated on a common language and culture. It took me about a milisecond to think of a simple, obvious, and clear refutation of this falsehood. I posted it in a snarky question, and I am not sure what you were trying to do by whining that it was about another country.
The point at issue is that VALUES are central, not language and culture. I am not stupid enough to think, nor have I ever intimated that the three are unrelated, but the POINT (again!) is that the VALUES (listed in my post above)are not dependent on the language and culture. You argued that yes, they are, because national values grow out of a shared language and culture. I listed one obvious rebuttal (there are others), and you objected, but I am not sure what exactly your objection is.

Your move.

And, pass a second law, making it illegal for any federal/state/local governmental agency and/or not-for-profit to provide support to anyone who is illegally in this country.

Add to that the idea that we eventually use this as a plan to roll back the hog trough open to American citizens and I will vote for it right now! I would even vote for it WITHOUT that addition! Government "compassion" is legalized theft.

Of course, I find your first proposal abhorrent, but wanted to agree where I could.

Switzerland has 4 official languages....gee, why would that be? Perhaps because: 1) they have different VALUES for their country. That they value placing 4 languages on par with each other makes them automatically DIFFERENT from America just in that respect. And BECAUSE they value different languages, their culture has EVOLVED differently FROM America, which has historic cultural values of its citizens learning and speaking ONE language, called ENGLISH....and with learning ENGLISH, one learns the history of ENGLISH.

A common language serves to unite a people.

From the commonality of language comes the ability to communicate agreed upon OTHER values....most of which are found in some sort of document, which DEFINES what those values are (i.e., the Constitution of the United States of America).

Through these agreed-upon definitions unique to the particular country, comes a unique culture, which grows, over time, but still holds, through that growth, the "essence" of what makes that country a unique country and culture different from others.

The three are INTIMATELY connected.

Shared communication allows a people to develop and define their culture and agree upon the values and standards upon which to build and sustain their civilization as unique...

Back to the common language stuff. I am for a common language, but a common language that grows from a MARKET ACCEPTANCE that English is the way to prosper and advance. This understanding around the world is why a TOEFL teacher can go pretty much anywhere they wish and teach English. It is also the reason why Hispanics are learning English at pretty much the same rate that previous groups have done in the past (I posted and linked to this statistically proven fact in a previous post to some guy named "greybeard" in the past. You can click on my "in forum" link if you want the reference). It is MARKET DRIVEN.

However, if the market preferred pidgin Chinese, guess what? I would be for us speaking in nasal twangs. English, Spanish, Eperanto, whatever. English dominates because of our VALUES as free market champions, not because an a-swipe politician passes bill HR9198327949821 regulating yet ANOTHER aspect of our lives because some dyspeptic doesn't like hearing "for english press 1, para espanol marque dos."

Laws are being passed, or vote for, because there has been a not-so-covert attempt to hijack the "language of the land" into one other "accepted by all" language mentality (i.e., Spanish). Historically, those who migrate/immigrate to the United States were expected to learn the our country's language, not as has become the other way around. It's not only offensive to many that our country is catering to one group of people, where it has not done so previously, it is causing great alarm, as adopting another language as a "secondary" language WILL alter this country's culture and, with that, its values.

Switzerland has 4 official languages....gee, why would that be? Perhaps because: 1) they have different VALUES for their country(you put a period here where there should have been a question mark)

Actually Switzerland has ONE central statement of political values (their constitution). They do not have four constitutions. You have an INSISTENCE that values are language dependent. This is, simply speaking, balderdash. You insist on this obvious falsehood because you know that to admit the obvious will harm your "English speaking only" vision of America. I can drive thru Michigan on Sunday a.m. and hear dutch or german sermons. The largest Farsi newspaper in the world is in Los Angeles. Many Chinese establishments print menus in Chinese. There are communities in NYC where only Yiddish is spoken. English predominates in all these areas, and those who don't assimilate are at a disadvantage AND THEY KNOW IT. They are like the Amish. Weird, but only a threat to those obsessed with everyone conforming. This country is about FREEDOM, not about cultural assimilation. The ones who want to get ahead assimilate, just as UNIVISION recognizes. This Hispanic TV station is launching an ENGLISH LANGUAGE soap opera because "so many second generation latinos do not speak Spanish." My wife and I sat next to a kid on the plane from San Juan PR to Miami who was headed to Miami and then to LA, on a marketing project for "Spanglish" radio spots, kind of a pidgin texmex goo that is kind of like hiphop jive. The point to this is that cultures do NOT stay static, separated, or isolated. Everyone wants to come to the USA and get rich, and the ones who get here and want to succeed know they have to learn English eventually to really get ahead. The idea that there are droves of 3rd and 4th generations of hispanics (or any other people group) who simply refuse to learn english is the product of the fevered paranoid minds of buchanan clones, not the result of research.

you have an INSISTENCE that values are language dependent. This is, simply speaking, balderdash. You insist on this obvious falsehood because you know that to admit the obvious will harm your "English speaking only" vision of America. I can drive thru Michigan on Sunday a.m. and hear dutch or german sermons.(FYI, I type a "period" instead of a "question mark" for a reason: I was answering, not asking, a question.)

It isn't balderdash; it's a FACT. As far as how people speak to each other in their churches, in their homes, or in their cars, I COULD CARE LESS! The government, however, SHOULD NOT be spending TAXPAYER money to communicate in languages NOT English, such as for voting/driving/education, etc. People should be required to speak this country's language at schools and with government officials, not the other way around.

Not that you'll be interested in reading anything at this site, but I'm posting an excerpt to a 1995 article, with points that are still as relevant today as when it was written, and link just the same, in case others/lurkers are:

One Nation, One People, One Common Language

by Rep. Toby Roth

Having English as our official language simply means that the primary language of instruction in schools is English, and that you vote and deal with the government in English. People will still be able, even encouraged, to speak and learn a foreign language, and preserve their heritage. The only significant difference will be that government actively reinforces our common language rather than erodes it.
For almost every American, this is just common sense. Just recently a USA Today Weekend Magazine poll found that 97 percent of respondents wanted to declare English our official language.
In the past, our nation has been a shining example of how people from every background can live and work together in harmony. I want to keep America one nation, one people. We must preserve the common bond that has kept this country of immigrants together for more than two centuries by making English our official language. Our future as a united nation depends on it.
[snip]

Historically, those who migrate/immigrate to the United States were expected to learn the our country's language, not as has become the other way around.

That statement is historical nonsense. At one point in time, Chicago had the largest polish newspaper in the world. The Denver Post was originally in German. I could list SEVERAL items like this, but I won't. The cries of threat and cultural fears of being overwhelmed were similar, too. Google on the cultural backlash against Chinese immigrants in the 1890s. Or the Irish in the 1860s (they WERE English speaking, to be sure), or the Italians in the early 1900s. Same tired arguments. Same hysteria. Same lame accusations. Wasn't true then. Ain't true now.

The big difference is that we were not creating a permanent underground group of people. If you showed up at Ellis Island with medical clearance and a script showing you were not a criminal, they let you in. If you showed up WOP (without papers), they kept you for processing, and screened you there, and let you in. This idea that in the past immigrants lined up in orderly little lines at the American Embassy in Naples, Krakau, Hong Kong, Dublin, or Moscow to get visas is complete and utter bullshit, and the freepers who advocate that this current group should go "back to the LEGAL way their forefathers did it" are historically ignorant. If they did it the way the earlier generations of immigrants did, they would show up at the border and we would issue them a visa and they would come in.

I found the article amusing. It started out by saying what I say (or I said what it said, whatever), in that English is the way to progress and everyone knows it. So far, so good. Then it lists a whole slew of gov't dumbass projects to waste money translating ballots and other crap. No disagreements there. THIS is what I found amusing:

Why are we doing this? Our laws require that naturalized citizens must "demonstrate an understanding of the English language, including the ability to read, write, and speak words in ordinary usage in the English language." Before calling for a LAW to establish "English as the official language" the article ADMITS that the law already requires a naturalized citizen to have sufficient understand of English to get by for basic activities.

You want to fix the problem by passing a FEDERAL law. Oh, just GREAT! That'll damn sure fix it. Let's outlaw murder next, ok?

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