Posted on 10/28/2005 2:11:25 PM PDT by Crackingham
The man had been attending a Methodist church in South Hill, Va., for several months. He sang in the choir. He owned a business and was well known in the community. But when he asked to become a formal member of the church, the pastor turned him down, because he is gay.
Those are the bare facts of a case that has split a 650-member congregation in southern Virginia and that threatens to divide the 8 million-member United Methodist Church, the nation's second largest Protestant denomination.
Yesterday in Houston, the Methodists' highest court heard an appeal from the pastor of South Hill United Methodist Church, the Rev. Edward Johnson. He was placed on unpaid leave after he rejected entreaties from his immediate supervisor and his bishop to admit the gay man, who has not been named by church officials and has declined to talk about the case.
Nationally, the Methodist Church prohibits "self-avowed, practicing homosexuals" from serving as ordained ministers. But it has declared that gay men and lesbians are "persons of sacred worth" and has repeatedly said there are no bars to their participation as lay people.
"The theme of our church for five years now has been 'Open Hearts. Open Minds. Open Doors.' The issue here is, 'Are we really open or not?' " said the Rev. W. Anthony Layman, who was Johnson's district superintendent when the pastor was removed in June by a 581 to 20 vote of fellow ministers in the church's Virginia conference.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
If you can cite chapter and verse where it's given to me to stack rank them I'll read it
Why is a sin of the reproductive system more or less important than a sin of the digestive system?
Do I need to cite chapter and verse to convince you that murder is worse than gluttony? That idolatry is worse than sloth?
Gluttony, arguably, hastens the death of the glutton and hence, it could be argued, is a form of suicide or at least a lack of respect for the gift of life.
Yes, in fact you do need to show me where it is written that some sins may be ignored or at least where the sins of the reproductive system are worse than sins of the digestive system.
What does that mean? If I call myself a murderer, but I have never murdered anyone does it make me a murder. No. He said he was "gay"...so that must mean he has committed the act.
Sins of the reproductive system are given two whole chapters in Leviticus (Chs. 18 and 20) and mentioned numerous times elsewhere in the Bible. The lack of any similar exposition about gluttony should prove - if the Bible is your basis of morality - that the former are worse.
Exactly. The church cannot allow those that "keepeth not his commandments" (1 John 2:4)to deceive the fellowship.
Keep them out.
> However, do we attempt to turn away from our sin, or do we embrace it and say it's not really a sin?
You make a good point, but what about all those Catholics who just can't agree with the Pope's position on birth control? Should they be given the boot too?
I am strongly against normalizing homosexuality, but I too would tend not to throw them from a congregation. That said, I would resist any efforts to get them into positions of power in the church, and I would use their lifestyle as the club, if necessary.
The sinner does not "try" to hear the word of God. The unsaved heart is naturally hostile towards God and cannot subject itself to His will. There are none who seek.
Those who are drawn to God are done so through the indwelling regeneration of the Holy Spirit. A force that rends the heart, and forces the individual to see their sin for the loathsome, foul thing that it is.
It produces in us a Godly sorrow for our sin, causing us to lament when we act sinfull, which in turn causes us to ask Him for forgiveness in repentance.
That is the difference. If this "gay" worshipper were truly a saved Christian, he would renounce his sinful lifestyle and seek holiness. He does not. Instead, he seeks affirmation of his sin. Light cannot have fellowship with darkness. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian".
Yes, I sin. I sin brutally with pride, lust, sloth, disobedience - daily. The difference is how this person and I have dealt with our sin. Mine causes me to flee from it, his causes him to seek approval for it.
How quaint.
Study the differences between Ceremonial,Civil, and Moral laws of the OT.
Ceremonialand Civil laws were fulfilled by Christ's ultimate sacrifice. The moral law still stands.
Matthew 12:31-32
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
You gotta want to be forgiven. Forgiveness isn't given in the absence of repentance.
I guess you've been frequenting the websites that help you to cleverly trick Bible believing conservatives into thinking that because wearing cloth made of mixed fibers doesn't apply any more, that homosexuality is now okay too!
Bible Bashing for Dummies, is that one of them?
Gosh, how original and clever. We've seen this how many times, It's?
Repentant sinners wanted, unrepentant sinners need not apply.
Yes, but do you repent?
baloney. If you don't like the rules why should the church change for you? Because you have a right to worship there? Liberals...
I wonder how many unrepetent single heterosexual members of that church there are, about their habit of having sex outside marriage? Selectivity about "sin," is just that, selective, and reflects the cultural biases of the pastor in this case. He is being self indulgent, and hubristic.
The question goes to repentance. A gay is by definition not repentant. A person who suffers from same-sex attraction is trying to get past it, living chastely is repentant.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
The flawed argument you present is one often used by those ignorantly or intentionally attempting to refute Christianity or attempting to further the homosexual agenda or both...
Here -this may help you understand the totality of what God has divinely revealed and how both old law and new covenant are not contradictory and both still quite valid....
Most homosexual apologetics and homosexual activists that reference Christianity and even those that claim to be Christians tend to be cafeteria Christians ignoring some stuff and embracing other stuff and in essence attempting to twist truth to fit the perverted version of reality they promote -- They suggest homosexuality is okay, that homosexual sex is 'love' and point to nothing except their own morally relative deluded and derived interpretation of what is clearly written or not written in Sacred Scripture. Some ignore the general and point to the lack of specific, some ignore the old and point to the new, some attempt to compare and contrast the old against the new illegitimately, some want only certain 'specifics' and only New Testament stuff -some go one step further than most and only specifically want quotes from Christ...
[They] have one thing in common and that is [they] all want only that which supports their particular perversion and ignore or turn on its head that which affronts it...
The truth however is simple -it does not contradict itself. Contradiction signals perversion and compromise of truth. Only by accepting all truth is any single truth authentically derived and elaborated upon...
Contradiction does not impinge upon truth [it] signals but a lack of understanding that must be reconciled but not reconciled at the expense of truth...
Some may know some of what I post already; however, I will post it anyway just in case some genuinely are seeking answers and also for those that may not know and would benefit.
Of course, many realize that Old Testament law is still quite valid -Christ did not do away with the law (see New Testament # 1 below). Old Testament ceremony, ritual and penalties of man may have been done away with; however, the 'old law' is still in effect, mortal sin is still mortal sin and still damages the soul and can condemn one to damnation. I would suggest that condemnation of homosexual activity does not really have to be specific -take the condemnation of sex outside of marriage for example (e.g. unchastitiy; see New Testament # 2 below).
This should be more than adequate to show the error of those espousing such false contradictory arguments for whatever reason be either ignorant or simply fools that seek ignorance and or deceit by omission and wish to promulgate false authenticity in truth perverted.
New Testament: Sacred Scripture on subject of homosexuality:
- Matthew 5:17-19
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
- Matthew 15:19
19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy.
- 1 Timothy 1:8-11
8 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
9 with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
10 the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,
11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
- Romans 1:22-26
22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.
24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
25 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,
26 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.
Leviticus spills a lot of ink on the questions of what foods are permissable to eat and the dietary laws are a significant part of the Jewish law in general. Violations of these laws are sins of the digestive system and were certainly important to the G-d that handeed down the ten commandments. A glutton is a persistant and, apparently, unrepentant sinner if he or she keeps the excess weight. It is not a matter for conjecture, the evidence is right there for all to see.
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