Gays, priest sex abuse: Is there any connection?

The Boston Globe ^ | 10.17.05 | Carey Goldberg

[tuesday afternoon]

If the Catholic Church wants to prevent sexual abuse by priests, several abuse experts said, there are better ways to do it than by trying to bar gay men from the clergy.

The church recently began checking American seminaries for ''evidence of homosexuality," and the pope is widely expected to ban actively gay men from taking holy orders.

But it will be tricky to cull gays from the priesthood, the abuse experts said this month. And it would be more effective -- and more humane -- to target likely abusers rather than all gays.

''There's no adequate way to screen out homosexuality," said Martin P. Kafka, a psychiatrist at Harvard's McLean Hospital. ''We don't have any lab tests."

-SNIP-

Still, when adults molest children past puberty, they tend to follow their sexual orientation. When the victims are older, straight men tend to molest girls and gay men molest boys. According to one survey, two-thirds of the victims were 12 or older when the abuse began.

-SNIP-

Furthermore, he said, he argued, ''If you have a policy of excluding homosexuals, all the applicants to the seminaries who are homosexual will just lie."

-SNIP-

And in current-day America, he added, gay people are much likelier to acknowledge and accept their sexual orientation, so they may present far lower risks than the repressed types of the old days

[RobbyS]

Well, that "should not" is based not on a general disapproval of homosexuality but what happens when homosexual do become scout leaders. Rotten apples have to be thrown out.

[Rudder]

I agree that homosexual males should not be in positions of adult leadership in the BSA.

[RobbyS]

And the reason is practical, just as you don't let a greedy person continue to be the treasuer of your club.

[scripter]

there is a considerable amount of scholarship which says that he does not make a conscious choice.

That depends what you're talking about. In the I Do Exist video, there are ex-gays that tell us the attraction isn't a choice but the sexual behavior itself is a choice. Through reparative/reorientation therapy, same-sex attraction can be fully removed, greatly diminished, diminished some and not removed at all. This tells us sexuality can be fluid in some who are confused about their sexuality.

Unfortunately, books similar to The New Gay Teenager will only add to the confusion.

[BIRDS]

He's not our Church's only Pope. Nor is current Rome our only Church.

And, who are you to allege speaking on behalf of Pope Benedict, anyway?

[BIRDS]

I get from your comments that you are fine with homosexuals manipulating the vows of the priesthood in the Catholic Church.

I and many are not. Their presence there defies holy scripture and from what Pope Benedict has made public as to his reasoning and insights, he seems to indicate that he, too, reasons as I do about this issue, and as do others.

The Church is an ongoing work. Our Catholic Church was not and is not established upon lies but upon the Truth. Christ, God, the Holy Spirit are not mocked.

[PeoplesRepublicOfWashington]

"There's no adequate way to screen out homosexuality," said Martin P. Kafka, a psychiatrist at Harvard's McLean Hospital. "We don't have any lab tests."

But I thought homosexuality was genetically determined.

[BIRDS]

You continue to mislead readers with these ongoing statements as to what you allege are 'absolute' positions by the Catholic Church.

Unless you are Pope Benedict himself here on FR, I see no support other than heresay that you can rely on to support your ongoing allegations here as to homosexuals in the Catholic Priesthood (remaining there).

You ALSO bypass the most significant issue here as to the Priesthood, and that is that it requires and includes, is contingent upon, a vow of CHASTITY. No one chaste is going to continue to present and self identify as "a homosexual" nor even affiliate with the very notion.

Unless and of course, their commitment is to the sin itself of homosexuality. If they do that, they are not chaste and are violating the vows of the priesthood. Not to mention embracing sin of a very terrible sort while representing to the faithful otherwise. Meaning, they are lying, are in a position of deceit before trust.

I take this issue quite seriously as other Christians, Catholics do and to persist to defend "homosexuals in the priesthood" is an egregious position for any person of faith to take. It represents an encouragement to sin, about sin.

[BIRDS]

Yes, exactly right.

[BIRDS]

You're engaged in deception here.

You continue to allege that homosexuality within the defintions of Christianity and the Catholic Church is a parallel issue.

It is not.

Pope Benedict (even) has been quite clear as to the Church's position on and about homosexuality, as has the Church prior to Pope Benedict being in office, and that is that homosexuality is and represents a disorded state of mind, disorded thinking.

The HOLY BIBLE states that homosexuality is an abomination to God (among other passages about the issue).

Since the Catholic Church is a religious organization founded on scripture, with belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity, we Catholics are not on a path in contradiction to those beliefs and those sources of faith, ideals, beliefs and goals.

Your only premise to support your ongoing statements here seems limited to your determination that homosexuals are to remain in the priesthood in the Catholic Church and that they will because you determine it so. And that there is some equality of defintion between homosexuality and heterosexuality.

None of those positions of yours are substantiated within Christianity.

There is forgiveness for the sin of homosexuality to those who confess it as sin and reform their lives, as with ohter sins and so Christ has taught us. The Church is not punishing homoesexuals by instructing Scripture, but instructing sinners away from sin.

Homosexuals "called" to the Priesthood is an issue for human consideration in that they very well find the lifestyle and opportunities inviting for a number of reasons, and based upon the many homosexuals who have used the priesthood to further their sensual interests (a variety of those), to enable their "homosexuality" as being (falsely) acceptable as a representation of Christ (which is paramount sin against the Holy Spirit), perhaps many have been in these terms "called."

However, if a religious calling has occured for some or even all, my faith tells me that God has called them to chastity and conversion. And their vows before mankind and God do, too. AND IF those vows are taken seriously, there will be conversion and the very notion of "homosexuality" as personal identity and affinity will not be present.

However, by the mere fact that homosexuality is persisted in being an aspect after being "called" and after, supposedly, embracing the vows of the priesthood, there is strong presence that there is no conversion and that the vows themselves are not sincerely approached.

A person such as that -- who identifies as and with homosexuality in the priesthood -- should not remain in the priesthood and most of us Catholics will be among those encouraging them to depart.

[BIRDS]

There most certainly IS "a test for homosexuality."

It's called confession.

ANYone with that affiliatiion who does not confess that affiliation (the presence of homosexuality) in pursuit of the priesthood, is engaged in deception.

Question is significant here: why would anyone with an affiliation with homosexuality engage in that type of deception, and why would they want to gain access to the Priesthood, in defiance with the Holy Bible?

No one of that character belongs in the Priesthood. By any option.

This issue calls into question the issue of homosexuals purusing the priesthood and why...by doing so, not confessing the presence of homosexuality but pursuing the Priesthood despite that, they attempt to present their sin (and it is a sin) before the faithful as not sin but commendation. Because, by not pursuing the priesthood, they are left to dwell as a member of the so-called faithful with their sin.

I think the pursuit of the priesthood by people who are affiliated with homosexuality is an effort to mislead people, it's certainly an effort to defy scripture and an effort to ensure a non-repentent "lifestyle".

[BIRDS]

You bypass the fact that homosexuality is a state of sin. The sin itself can be and should be repented from and with a change of heart and soul involved, not just a "penile" or sensual issue here, but a spiritual change.

Which is what CHASTITY is. CELIBACY is physical abstinence. CHASTITY is a non affiliation with sensual (and sexual) existence. Homosexuality is an abomination as per what God tells us.

Today's popular psychology has indoctrinated many people into accepting homosexuality as an inherent, biological imperative by and of some individuals.

However (biology aside, which has never been able to establish any "inherent" nature to homosexual behavior), the Church and Christianity are not cultural, social groups based upon pop psychology nor ruled, modified and guided by such, but by other defining principles and beliefs, goals and inspirations.

Within the religious, therefore, the definition of homosexuality is that it is abominable in God's eyes (for starters -- have you read the Bible, as a related issue here) but all sins are forgivable given CONFESSION AND REPENTANCE.

Without confession and repentance of sin, the sin and the burden of the sin remains. And "the wages of sin are death."

Homosexuality in the Priesthood attempts to present the sinful, the false, the lie, in the place where holiness is expected and should be. The faithful understand this.

[saradippity]

I hope you didn't think that my comments to Rudder indicated that I didn't think that homosexuals have a high incidence of molesting boys who have reached puberty,they do,as we both know. They are attracted to them because of their youth and beauty (so to speak) as well as for recruitment purposes,doubly tempting!! So all care must be taken to assure,by the best means possible that Christ's Church "Lead us/them not into temptation,but deliver us/them from evil."

My remarks to Rudder were made to correct an error he made and seems unable to correct despite the fact that all literature shows that more heterosexuals than homosexuals are pedophiles. The fact that a homosexual is far more likely to be a pedophile than a heterosexual is,is beside the point. Blurring and ambiguities are tools of the other side.

[ThomasMore]

He said that "most male pedophiles are homosexual pedophiles."

All this means is the following: it is a known fact that the grand majority of the cases that have been recorded to date are cases of ephebophilia which is a homosexual condition (sex between men and adolescent boys).

[TradicalRC]

I suppose it seems a bit far for one who is not catholic, but do you criticize the practices of homosexuals? That activity is condemned in the Bible, as is those that make chaste vows, to make themselves holy. The practices of the church are traditions, and as such are not the command of God. Therefore, they are open to interpretation and questioning.

Priests that commit sexual acts, are burning with lust. Those that remain chaste are repressing some of the most basic of human urges. They quite frankly believe that to not marry or have children, makes them more acceptable to God. They are making a huge assumption, for no reason IMNSHO.

You will have to point out chapter and verse for me where Scripture condemns chastity. Christ was chaste and St. Paul extols the virtues of chastity as well.
FWIW, it is not necessarily "repression", it may well be a spiritual ordering of the passions to serve God better. Just something to consider.

[TradicalRC]

God calls who he will,

Of course.

...and cares not if you or I belong to a LLC or a cult.

I wouldn't presume to know God's thoughts on these matters. He does seem to discriminate quite a bit.

[A. Pole]

I would say, a man or woman can be a priest.

Are you a believer? What is the meaning of priesthood according to you?

[A. Pole]

The data is clear, most of the priest abusers abuse post pubescent males. This is a HOMOSEXUAL abuse issue, not a pedophile issue.

Or to be more precise is the issue of PEDERASTY. This term "refers to erotic love between adolescents and adult men. The word derives from the combination of pais (Greek for 'boy') with erastis (Greek for 'lover'; cf. eros)."

[ThomasMore]

if he commits to celibacy

Celibacy, in the Catholic sense, is the state of "not being married for the sake of the kingdom". It has absolutely nothing to do with the virtue of CHASTITY. The word "celibacy" is being used here as if it pertained to non-fornication.

[HamiltonJay]

80 to 90% of boys who are sexually abused are abused by a non family member close friend. This is the exact opposite for girls who are 80-90% of the time abused by direct family members.

The Church signed a deal with the devil back in the 60s when it started allowing "gay, but not practicing" men into the priesthood. Now it is an pervasive undercurrent that actually dominates some denominations... And those who speak out against their sinful and hedonism are put out to pasture while they trade sex and sexual favors for promotion, privalege etc.

The Catholic church MUST purge these homosexuals from their ranks. The scandal of abuse in the Catholic church is not largely one of pedophilia... Pedophiles want victims who are prepubecent.... the Scandal is largely of predatory homosexuals.