Posted on 09/27/2005 9:10:31 AM PDT by Crackingham
Dover Area School District's federal trial began yesterday in Harrisburg with talk ranging from divine intervention and the Boston Red Sox to aliens and bacterial flagellum. After about 10 months of waiting, the court case against the district and its board opened in Middle District Judge John E. Jones III's courtroom with statements from lawyers and several hours of expert testimony from biologist and Brown University professor Kenneth Miller.
On one side of the aisle, several plaintiffs packed themselves in wooden benches behind a row of attorneys from the American Civil Liberties Union, Pepper Hamilton LLC and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. On the other side of the aisle, nine school board members, only three of whom were on the board when it voted 6-3 to include a statement on intelligent design in biology classes, piled in behind lawyers from the Thomas More Law Center. Assistant superintendent Michael Baksa and superintendent Richard Nilsen shared a bench with Michael Behe, a Lehigh University professor expected to take the stand in defense of intelligent design.
SNIP
Miller, whose resume is several pages long and includes a stint as a professor at Harvard University, was the first witness called for the parents. Miller co-wrote the Prentice Hall textbook "Biology" with professor Joe Levine. The book is used by 35 percent of the high school students in the United States, Miller said. His were some of the thousands of biology books in which school officials in Cobb County, Ga., ordered stickers to be placed, warning that evolution is only a theory, "not a fact." Miller also testified in a lawsuit filed by Cobb County parents, and a judge later ordered that the stickers be removed.
Yesterday, the scientist's testimony was at times dominated by scientific terminology, though he jokingly told ACLU attorney Witold Walczak he would do his best to explain things in the layman's terms he uses with his mother.
Miller said intelligent design supporters think an intelligent designer must have been involved in the creation of life because science can't yet prove how everything evolved. He said the intelligent design idea that birds were created with beaks, feathers and wings and fish were born with fins is a creationist argument.
Intelligent design supporters often cite "irreducible complexity" in their research, he said. "Irreducible complexity" means that a living thing can't be reduced by any part or it won't work at all. So those living things could not have evolved in the way Darwin suggested; they had to be created with all of their existing parts, Miller said.
Intelligent design proponents often cite the bacterial flagellum, a bacterium with a tail that propels it, Miller said. Behe and his colleagues claim bacterial flagellum had to be created with all of its parts because it couldn't function if any of them were taken away, Miller testified. But scientists have proved that the bacterial flagellum can be reduced to a smaller being, a little organism that operates in a manner similar to a syringe, Miller said.
One of the biggest problems with the scientific viability of intelligent design is there is no way to experiment with the presence of a supernatural being because science only deals with the natural world and theories that are testable, Miller said.
Some people might suspect divine intervention last year when the Boston Red Sox came back to win the World Series after losing three games in a row to the New York Yankees in the playoffs. It may have been, but that's not science, he said. And intelligent design proponents haven't named the "intelligent being" behind their supposition, Miller said. They have suggested, among other things, that it could be aliens, he said. He said there is no evidence to prove intelligent design, so its proponents just try to poke holes in the theory of evolution.
What do you mean, "incipient"?
um... point.
It's all fun until someone brings a stick to the party.
Interesting to watch the thread die a slow and painful death, isn't it.
Both ideas work. Because you don't think there are any plausible natural explainations for the diversity of life you assume ID.
And while you might not have seen anybody build a ferarri engine, other people have, and if you wanted to you could go and validate those observations. So I am sure you do accept that people build ferarri engines based on this. This is how you and I can be confident that fararri engines are ID.
Has anybody ever seen macroevolution happen?
Has anyone ever seen a complete orbit of pluto?
LOL!
[think Rocket J. Squirrel, here]
"And now, here he is, with a trebuchet in his garage and a hole in the roof to prove it..."
No. Has it come out on DVD yet?
That isn't offensive. What is offensive is people who tell falsehoods about evolutionary biology in order to try to damage public confidence in it, driven by a belief that evolutionary biology somehow undermines belief in God -- and try to get those falsehoods taught in science classes to students who don't have the background necessary to spot the fallacies in the anti-science propaganda.
Scientists have the advantage here. Because every intelligent person has to consider the proofs of evolution as they have been so far "evolved." But of course, scientists are not required to believe in an Intelligent Designer as they attempt to unravel Evolution and develop answers to the many questions it poses.
Nor are they required not to believe in an "Intelligent Designer".
I don't get where the 'beef' is.
See above.
How does it harm "Science" if some people choose to believe Evolution is a tool of the Creator in whom we believe?
That doesn't harm science. But that's not what people are objecting to. What we object to is the anti-evolution propaganda industry.
It's like there's nothing wrong per se with someone arriving at the conclusion that the war in Iraq might not be good for the USA in the long term, but there *is* something very, very wrong with the dishonest tactics and extremist antics of Michael Moore, Cindy Sheehan, and the other members of the anti-war propaganda machine.
Evolution exists. Intelligent Design is one theory on WHY it exists.
No problem there. The problem is with the folks who launch propaganda attacks, either through incompetence or dishonesty or both, on science in a misguided attempt to "defend" their faith. As you correctly point out, there's no real conflict between the two. But that doesn't stop a lot of folks from perceiving that the existence of evolutionary biology itself is an attack on their faith, and therefore feel justified in waging war against it themselves.
I think those who fight Intelligent Design are belligerent because they think, like you apparently, it is a way to counter Biblical Creationism.
No, those who "fight Intelligent Design" feel strongly about pseudoscience being peddled as if it were science, especially when it comes packaged with anti-science, anti-evolution falsehoods.
There's nothing wrong with the *notion* of intelligent design, but there's everything wrong with the ID *movement* as it currently exists. It's faith masquerading as science, when it isn't. I have no problem with people who are honest about their faith. I have a lot of problem with people who hide their faith in a trojan horse they have slapped an "ID" label on, filled with anti-science soldiers, then try to get it through the gates of science classrooms disguised as actual science.
Strict Creationists are opposed to admitting the existence of evolution as a life form developmental mechanism. Period.
Indeed.
By fighting Intelligent Design, which does nothing but enhance your position,
"ID" the concept, or "ID" the propagandist political movement pretending to be science?
you are making common cause, in a very weird way, with anti-scientific forces. You want every one to believe there is no God.
Wrong.
They want everyone to believe there is a God, but no evolution.
Correct.
But if you put it in an educational setting, one would certainly want young people to know their science. Many of us would like them to know, or at least be able to speculate, to what end science, and indeed all human knowledge exists.
Yes, but that science education is severely harmed by allowing politically/religiously motivated false propaganda and pseudoscience to muddle actual science classes.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that many people believe there's a supreme being behind everything. But that's not what the "IDers" want to put into the classroom. First, there's no need to make a special effort to "teach" that, because all students -- indeed, all Americans -- already *know* that obvious fact.
Instead, the IDers want to teach their bogus anti-evolution arguments, they want to teach their flawed "pro-ID" evidence/arguments, and they want to confuse students as to how science is actually employed to separate reliable information from unsupported personal belief.
In short, while this may not be their intentional goal, their aim is to severely undermine science in America itself.
Creationists and Atheistic Scientists are polar opposites.
That's overly simplistic, there are many "kinds" within even those two particular categories.
The young learn nothing from your fight.
I'm sorry you think so.
You think, and with some reason, that God does not belong in the public market place of ideas.
That too is a great oversimplification. Instead, the position is that pseudoscience about God does not belong in science classes, and does not deserve to remain unexposed when it attempts to masquerade as science in the media.
Also, didn't you get the memo? "Intelligent Design" isn't *about* "God", it's about unnamed intelligences of unspecified types, perhaps aliens. Yes, really, that's what the IDers keep trying to claim with a straight face. The fact that this is an obviously disingenuous subterfuge for actually talking about God should be a red flag that "ID" isn't an actual science or philosophy, it's a trojan horse for religion. And if their motives and arguments are as good as they try to claim, why do they feel the need to pretend that it's something it's not? Why try to pretend that it's not about religion when it's really about God? How can we trust them when they're so obviously not being up-front about their primary topic?
But of course, itiseminently fair to teach that some people
Er, did you post get unintentionally posted before you were finished?
Also, didn't you get the memo? "Intelligent Design" isn't *about* "God", it's about unnamed intelligences of unspecified types, perhaps aliens.
Aliens? I got that covered too!
"The First Born of Barsoom," he explained, "are the race of black men of which I am a Dator, or, as the lesser Barsoomians would say, Prince. My race is the oldest on the planet. We trace our lineage, unbroken, direct to the Tree of Life which flourished in the centre of the Valley Dor twenty-three million years ago.From The Gods of Mars by Edgar Rice Burrows"For countless ages the fruit of this tree underwent the gradual changes of evolution, passing by degrees from true plant life to a combination of plant and animal. In the first stages the fruit of the tree possessed only the power of independent muscular action, while the stem remained attached to the parent plant; later a brain developed in the fruit, so that hanging there by their long stems they thought and moved as individuals.
"Then, with the development of perceptions came a comparison of them; judgments were reached and compared, and thus reason and the power to reason were born upon Barsoom.
"Ages passed. Many forms of life came and went upon the Tree of Life, but still all were attached to the parent plant by stems of varying lengths. At length the fruit tree consisted in tiny plant men, such as we now see reproduced in such huge dimensions in the Valley Dor, but still hanging to the limbs and branches of the tree by the stems which grew from the tops of their heads.
"The buds from which the plant men blossomed resembled large nuts about a foot in diameter, divided by double partition walls into four sections. In one section grew the plant man, in another a sixteen-legged worm, in the third the progenitor of the white ape and in the fourth the primaeval black man of Barsoom.
"When the bud burst the plant man remained dangling at the end of his stem, but the three other sections fell to the ground, where the efforts of their imprisoned occupants to escape sent them hopping about in all directions.
"Thus as time went on, all Barsoom was covered with these imprisoned creatures. For countless ages they lived their long lives within their hard shells, hopping and skipping about the broad planet; falling into rivers, lakes, and seas, to be still further spread about the surface of the new world.
"Countless billions died before the first black man broke through his prison walls into the light of day. Prompted by curiosity, he broke open other shells and the peopling of Barsoom commenced.
"The pure strain of the blood of this first black man has remained untainted by admixture with other creatures in the race of which I am a member; but from the sixteen-legged worm, the first ape and renegade black man has sprung every other form of animal life upon Barsoom.
"The therns," and he smiled maliciously as he spoke, "are but the result of ages of evolution from the pure white ape of antiquity. They are a lower order still. There is but one race of true and immortal humans on Barsoom. It is the race of black men.
"The Tree of Life is dead, but before it died the plant men learned to detach themselves from it and roam the face of Barsoom with the other children of the First Parent.
"Now their bisexuality permits them to reproduce themselves after the manner of true plants, but otherwise they have progressed but little in all the ages of their existence. Their actions and movements are largely matters of instinct and not guided to any great extent by reason, since the brain of a plant man is but a trifle larger than the end of your smallest finger. They live upon vegetation and the blood of animals, and their brain is just large enough to direct their movements in the direction of food, and to translate the food sensations which are carried to it from their eyes and ears. They have no sense of self-preservation and so are entirely without fear in the face of danger. That is why they are such terrible antagonists in combat."
You guys are pikers.
It was a dark and stormy night. The maid screamed. A shot rung out. Suddenly a pirate ship appeared on the horizon. At the front door a handsome, but evil stranger appeared. It was the awful, atheistic, communistic, Stalinistic, Nazi, baby-killer, Dr. A.T. Eist, and in spite of his German name he was pure evil.
"I have come to rape and pillage", he cackled. Since it's hard to rape with electrons I'll just have to pillage this thread to spread my evil theory. In other words, the Evilutionists have come to take over this here town. we're going to have won ton sex and bestiality by the bushel. Now git".
(we'll thicken the plot with some irreducible complexity later).
The hyphens disappear from his posts.
Rosie as Pluto?
She's bitterly cold and large? Or is she a dog?
Yes.
Excellent analogy. It's bang on!
So, you're a papist, huh? Well, your kind ain't welcome here. There's only one truth and it ain't yourn. The evil Doctor Eist will teach you a lesson.
NEW How speciation occurs. Ichneumon's post 217.
400
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