Posted on 09/20/2005 5:35:52 PM PDT by curiosity
Most adult Sunday school classes don't raise eyebrows, but my church is planning to hold one that's sure to. It's called "Evolution for Christians," and it will be taught this winter by David Bush, a member of the church I lead, Fairfax Presbyterian. David is an articulate government retiree who has been interested in this topic for nearly two decades, teaches a class on theories of the origins of life every five years or so, and once again has really done his homework. His view is that science and religion answer two different sets of questions about creation, with science answering the "how" questions, and religion answering the "why" ones. "With a little bit of wisdom and tolerance on each side," he tells me, "I think they can complement rather than contradict each other."
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Whoohooo! Nice work :-)
Don't forget the links in post 203 cleaned up by PH in post 283. :-)
"If science answers the "how?" in a way that leaves out any possibility for non-material causes,"
Not at all!
Because pure science, without any reference to anything spiritual, itself reposes on four more or less magical forces and a couple of inflectors.
The four primary forces are:
gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force.
And the two "inflectors", for want of a better word (natural science does not describe them as "forces", yet clearly considers them as influencing outcomes, are time and "entropy" - the tendency of things towards disorder.
Now, a fully articulated scientific reduction of a phenomenon will reduce it to the interplay of some combination of those four forces, as inflected by the "inflectors". That tells you "how", scientifically.
But it doesn't tell you a THING about why gravity works as it works, or the strong or weak force, or electromagnetism, or certainly entropy.
Now, science may break the forces down into particle sources, but again, the force is the effect of a particle. Why? Because that particle causes the force. Ok, but how does it cause the force? Because that is what the particle does.
It's sort of like the classic definition of work. Work = force applied over a distance. Ok. Why? Because we define it like that.
Mmmmmhmmmm.
What's a force, then?
A force is the ability to do work.
Ok, define work without force.
Can't.
Define force without work.
Can't.
Define distance at all.
Well, distance is what it is. It just IS.
And that's where you end up, if you go hard core science. You end up in forces arising from particles, perhaps arising from strings, which do as they do because they do.
WHY?
We have not the foggiest.
Really, we have not the foggiest idea why things fall.
We just have nice word strings to define it.
Example:
Why do things fall?
Gravity.
What's gravity?
Gravity is the attractive force of mass over distance.
Not according to Einstein.
Oh, alright. Gravity is the effect of warping of time-space by the presence of matter.
What is "time-space"?
It's time, and space, as related to one another.
Ok, what's time?
Ummmmm...that's obvious.
No, it's not. What is time?
It's a measured number of cycles of a cesium nucleus...?
Why?
Because we DEFINE it as such.
Hmmmm. Well, ok. Then what's SPACE?
The distance between two points, obviously.
Why is that a thing?
Because we define it as such.
Well, ok, so a blob of matter causes two things that exist because we DEFINE them as such, applying words to abstract concepts, REALLY WARP, and the REAL warping of what are abstract mental concepts causes things to FALL?
Right. No, wait...
Why?
BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT WORKS?
Yeah, ok, but WHY?
Well, because there's probably a particle we haven't found yet, called the gravitron, which causes gravity.
Ok, so there's a particle. How does that "cause" gravity?
By carrying information.
Ummmm, what's INFORMATION?
And at the end of a long and tiring march through a scientific dictionary, you end up with a string of black boxes, which are words, which are said to hold concepts, and the concepts, like gravity, are said to be self-explanatory.
But actually, when you really look at them, they aren't.
Which is why "WHY" matters, and can't be answered, really, by science. It can be answered with a word, but the word is the act of our own will to define. Where does a a horses' tail end and his back begin?
The link supposed to be to post 111 is ganz gebustet!
Anyway, the real link of interest is to post 110 by Ichneumon on an older thread.
DIEHARD EVOLUTIONIST'S DICTIONARY
ABIOGENESIS
That slow process by which living organisms were spontaneously generated from non-living matter. This scientific fact should not be confused with the old discredited myth of spontaneous generation by which it was once foolishly believed that living organisms arose from non-living matter. (see Law of Biogenesis).
A.C.L.U.
An organization that zealously protects our American civil liberties by preventing students in public schools from considering scientific evidence that is either consistent with creation or critical of evolution.
BIG BANG
The mechanism, or at least the noise, by which all matter and energy came into existence billions of years ago.
BIOLOGY
The branch of the exact sciences which is exclusively concerned with the evolution of living organisms by means of random mutations and natural selection.
DROSOPHILA
The "guinea pig" of the evolutionist to which we all owe a debt of gratitude for our understanding of the role of mutations in evolution. Trillions of generations of these rapidly breeding little flies have had their wings crumpled and their eyes damaged by strong mutagenic agents to provide us with a genetic insight into how man evolved from the prehominid brutes in a few thousand generations.
EVOLUTION
A truly perfect scientific theory which explaims in detail how everything in the universe came into being -- slowly. The theory of evolutions is so perfect and flexible in its ability to explain virtually all observable phemomena or opinions that it would be impossible to even conceive of an experiment capable of disproving it. (see Law).
GEOLOGIC COLUMN
A precise hierarchy of fossilized animals and plants of known age found in successive layers of stratified rock with the simplest and oldest at the bottom and the most highly evolved, i.e., most recent, at the top. Uninterrupted columns of this type may be found in any book of geology, paleontology or evolution. Bits and pieces of the column may even be found in the stratified rocks of the earth, but since these layers are often out of correct order and very incomplete, one should study the geologic column in books, not nature.
HOPEFUL MONSTER THEORY
A concept first introduced out of necessity by the geneticist, Richard Goldschmidt, which states that evolution occurs by sudden and large changes in the offspring of a species resulting in radically different but well adapted organisms, i.e. "hopeful monsters." After being widely discredited for many years this idea is being reintroduced, out of necessity, as a serious theory. The great leaps forward implicit in this theory entirely account for the absence of the "missing links." (See Punctuated Equilibrium)
INDEX FOSSILS
Fossils of animals whose ages are precisely known from the age of the rocks in which they are found, thus, serving as a means for accurately dating the rocks in which they are found as well as the age of any other fossils that may be contained therein.
LAW
In science, a statement of fact about a sequence or phenomenon that has been invariably observed to occur under known conditions such as, for example, the theory of evolution. (see Evolution).
LAW OF BIOGENESIS
Simply states the obvious...that all life comes from pre-existing life. This law, which was confirmed by Redi and Pasteur, permanently laid to rest the ludicrous idea of the ignorant ancients that living organisms could spring from inanimate matter. It should be emphasized that this law in no way precludes the slow origin of living organisms from inanimate matter through the process of evolution - after all, we are here, aren't we? (see Abiogenesis).
LIFE
The only term in this dictionary that defies definition since it has been said that "the division of matter into living and nonliving is perhaps an arbitrary one. It is a convenient method for distinguishing, for instance, a man from a rock." (quoted verbatim from The Origins of Life, by Cyril Ponnamperuma, 1962, H. P. Dutton, New York, p. 36).
MICROSPHERES
Primitive cells which have been artificially synthesized from simple laboratory reagents. As the name implies, the principal similarity between microspheres and living cells is that both are small and sort of round.
MISSING LINKS
An inconceivably vast assemblage of plants and animals which are intermediate in their evolutionary development between all of the discrete kinds of plants and animals one sees either alive or in the fossil record. Unfortunately as the name implies they are missing.
MUTATIONS
A change in the genetic material (DNA) of the cell induced by hazardous chemicals or radiation which in addition to killing or maiming organisms will, given enough time and enough mutations, inexorably lead some organisms on to an ever more successful and adaptive life.
NATURAL SELECTION
That miraculous process by which incredibly complex and useful structures, such as the eye or brain, are culled out from a vast array of random and purposeless mutations. In the distant past this marvelous natural artificer has produced the whole scope of existence from molecules to man but today it appears to be limiting its activities to such mundane matters as controlling the relative numbers of white and black moths in England.
NEO-DARWINIAN EVOLUTION
An embellishment of the old Darwinian theory of evolution, it states that random changes (mutations) in the genome of an organism will be selected for, and thus contribute to the evolution of the new species, only if they ultimately lead to a greater number of offspring. Thus, an ever-increasing rate of reproduction entirely accounts for the evolution from bacteria to man.
ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES PHYLOGENY
A law first discovered by Ernst Haeckel which if pronounced correctly and with conviction, impresses laymen and students of science in the elementary grades. Simply stated, and thus less convincingly, it means that the embryos of all animals bother to provide a historical review of many stages of their evolution during their embryological development. Although this type of reminiscing is touching and is taught in almost every general science and biology text book, it is no longer accepted by scientists or even evolutionists.
PHYLOGENETIC TREE
A tree that grows mainly in textbooks of biology and which has a variety of both contemporary and fossil animals perched on the tips of its branches. This tree clearly shows how all of these animals branched off from common ancestors a long time ago. For some reason the common ancestors are never shown sitting in the crotches of the tree. Plants presumably grow on different trees which are rather rare.
PILTDOWN MAN
Once known by all true scholars of human evolution to be an ancient ancestor of man. This true "ape man" had the jaw of a modern ape and the skull of a modern man. Today this ape-man is not so well known among true scholars of evolution.
PRIMITIVE
Old, inferior, poorly adapted, less evolved, shoddy, bungling.
PROOF
The assimilation of data in such a way that the desired conclusion seems to be the most plausible hypothesis.
PROTOZOA
As the name implies, these are known to be the first true animals on earth. If these primitive organisms had continued to adapt to their changing environment they might still be with us today.
PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM
An ad hoc hypothesis or alibi that claims the reason there are no known transitional forms in the fossil record is because evolutionary changes occur so quickly and the reason we can't see evolutionary changes in the laboratory is because they occur so slowly. (see Hopeful Monster Theory).
RADIOCARBON DATING
A remarkably precise method of actually measuring the age of any carbon-containing sample. Except for certain spurious (young) dates, radiocarbon, like other methods involving the decay of radionuclides will, given several absolutely safe assumptions, invariably indicate a ripe old age for any specimen consistent with a slow process of evolution.
SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS
One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble). We may be sure, however, that the mind-boggling increase in order, complexity and information accomplished by the evolution of chemicals to man in no way violates this law or it wouldn't have happened.
SELECTIVE PRESSURE
That natural and highly selective pressure that actually forces particularly useful structures such as brains, eyes, legs, wings and long necks on giraffes to evolve by random mutations. Unnecessary structures such as eyelids on your navel fail to evolve by chance because there is no selective pressure for this.
SPECULATION
The single most powerful tool in the hands of the evolutionists.
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST
The most important contribution of Darwin to biological thought which states that only those organisms which are fit survive, or in other words, survival is the result of being fit. By this kind of logic it can also be proven that loss of vision is a principal cause of blindness.
THEISTIC EVOLUTION
The belief that the evolutionary account of origins (where everything ascends from a very imperfect state to a more nearly perfect state) and the Biblical account of origins (where everything descends from a perfect state to a very imperfect state) are both true.
TIME
That miracle ingredient which in sufficient quantity can give scientific credibility to any hypothesis no matter how improbable. It is a well- known axiom of science for example, that given enough time virtually anything is possible - indeed you might even say it has to happen.
TREE
That which only evolution can make. (see Phylogenetic Tree).
VESTIGIAL ORGANS
Organs or other body parts, left over from evolutionary ancestors, which are no longer used or needed by an organism that has become more highly evolved by abandoning organs and getting simpler. Seventy years ago man had nearly one hundred vestigial organs such as the parathyroid, tonsils, coccyx, etc., but today he has very few vestigial organs because a good use has been discovered for most of these organs.
XERDEMA PIGMENTOSA
A disease of man in which certain enzymes which normally repair mutations of DNA fail to do so resulting in malignant tumors of the skin which are often fatal. Since it is well known that mutations were essential for the evolution of man from primitive cells, we must assume that too much of even a good thing like mutations is bad for us.
This is one of about a jillion things which I believe have been corrected before in this spamming Bozo's dictionary. It was probably you who posted it before right? Too lazy to make corrections?
Can't you read? I wrote ABSTRACT reasoning...HUGE difference.
Shouldn't Sunday School classes be focused on biblical teaching? Yeah, I thought it was.
No, it's based on the interpretations of evidence. Of course we all know those interpretations aren't the least bit biased.
::::sarcasm off::::
I guess you believe in the theory that the levees were blown up in NO. Do you have any serious religious beliefs?
The creationist version of the Second Law has already been falsified a billion times. It gets falsified every day, all the time. This is not a law of physics. Physics has a law of the same name which has held up very well, but it also says something rather different from the creationist version. It makes no reference to the mess in your room or to the actions of an intelligent director.
I've decided the Bible is a fairy tale, because you guys insisted that I had to buy into things like a 6 day creation or reject it all.
You're the one who apparently believes in Adam. You answer the question.
One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble).
LOL
There are also statements that say humans are animals.
e.g. Ecclesiastes 3:18
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