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Darwin Goes to Church
Washington Post ^ | 9/18/2005 | Rev. Henry G. Brinton

Posted on 09/20/2005 5:35:52 PM PDT by curiosity

Most adult Sunday school classes don't raise eyebrows, but my church is planning to hold one that's sure to. It's called "Evolution for Christians," and it will be taught this winter by David Bush, a member of the church I lead, Fairfax Presbyterian. David is an articulate government retiree who has been interested in this topic for nearly two decades, teaches a class on theories of the origins of life every five years or so, and once again has really done his homework. His view is that science and religion answer two different sets of questions about creation, with science answering the "how" questions, and religion answering the "why" ones. "With a little bit of wisdom and tolerance on each side," he tells me, "I think they can complement rather than contradict each other."

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: allcrevoallthetime; christianity; creation; crevo; crevolist; crevorepublic; darwinism; enoughalready; evolution; religion; unbelief
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To: js1138
the science of the day and our observation tell us it is so. I know this is the point you are trying to make and then you are going to apply this to creation and the Bible :)

The key here being that this use of sunrise and sunset as figurative speech in no way makes the creation account a figurative event. I believe in the creation account on faith (Heb 11:3). I believe in the resurrection on faith. I believe in the miracles of Jesus Christ on faith. Things that go against science. I believe these events literally happened becuase the context does not allow for figurative speech or a figurative interpretation would make no sense (i.e. Genesis 1).

The issue is not of the Bible as science, but as science actively trying to discredit the Bible. I can believe science when it says dead people do not rise and I can believe that Jesus rose from the dead, because the latter is a miracle that I believe on faith. I don't see scientists claiming Jesus didn't rise from the dead or actively denying that it happened. But somehow believing in creation on faith puts scientists in a huff. Science says something cannot appear from nothing, and I am fine with that. I agree. I believe that God created the heavens and the earth in 7 literal days by the Word of His mouth. He said it and it came to be. I see creation as a miracle, as an act of God and I believe it happened on faith. But science is actively doing its best to squash this belief. I will admit that Christians are trying to force their belief on others who do not have faith, and this is equally as wrong. Just like it would be wrong for a Christian to force medical students to accept the resurrection. But now science has started to tell me how to interpret the Bible, that is where I take offense. I dont believe in evolution and I have no problem with science teaching it. Its when science oversteps its bounds, and it has, that I have issue.

JM
321 posted on 09/21/2005 2:30:27 PM PDT by JohnnyM
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To: PatrickHenry

Whoohooo! Nice work :-)


322 posted on 09/21/2005 2:34:18 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: VadeRetro; swmobuffalo

Don't forget the links in post 203 cleaned up by PH in post 283. :-)


323 posted on 09/21/2005 2:40:32 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: churchillbuff

"If science answers the "how?" in a way that leaves out any possibility for non-material causes,"

Not at all!
Because pure science, without any reference to anything spiritual, itself reposes on four more or less magical forces and a couple of inflectors.

The four primary forces are:
gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force.
And the two "inflectors", for want of a better word (natural science does not describe them as "forces", yet clearly considers them as influencing outcomes, are time and "entropy" - the tendency of things towards disorder.

Now, a fully articulated scientific reduction of a phenomenon will reduce it to the interplay of some combination of those four forces, as inflected by the "inflectors". That tells you "how", scientifically.
But it doesn't tell you a THING about why gravity works as it works, or the strong or weak force, or electromagnetism, or certainly entropy.

Now, science may break the forces down into particle sources, but again, the force is the effect of a particle. Why? Because that particle causes the force. Ok, but how does it cause the force? Because that is what the particle does.

It's sort of like the classic definition of work. Work = force applied over a distance. Ok. Why? Because we define it like that.
Mmmmmhmmmm.
What's a force, then?
A force is the ability to do work.
Ok, define work without force.
Can't.
Define force without work.
Can't.
Define distance at all.
Well, distance is what it is. It just IS.
And that's where you end up, if you go hard core science. You end up in forces arising from particles, perhaps arising from strings, which do as they do because they do.
WHY?
We have not the foggiest.
Really, we have not the foggiest idea why things fall.
We just have nice word strings to define it.

Example:
Why do things fall?
Gravity.
What's gravity?
Gravity is the attractive force of mass over distance.
Not according to Einstein.
Oh, alright. Gravity is the effect of warping of time-space by the presence of matter.
What is "time-space"?
It's time, and space, as related to one another.
Ok, what's time?
Ummmmm...that's obvious.
No, it's not. What is time?
It's a measured number of cycles of a cesium nucleus...?
Why?
Because we DEFINE it as such.
Hmmmm. Well, ok. Then what's SPACE?
The distance between two points, obviously.
Why is that a thing?
Because we define it as such.
Well, ok, so a blob of matter causes two things that exist because we DEFINE them as such, applying words to abstract concepts, REALLY WARP, and the REAL warping of what are abstract mental concepts causes things to FALL?
Right. No, wait...
Why?
BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT WORKS?
Yeah, ok, but WHY?
Well, because there's probably a particle we haven't found yet, called the gravitron, which causes gravity.
Ok, so there's a particle. How does that "cause" gravity?
By carrying information.
Ummmm, what's INFORMATION?

And at the end of a long and tiring march through a scientific dictionary, you end up with a string of black boxes, which are words, which are said to hold concepts, and the concepts, like gravity, are said to be self-explanatory.
But actually, when you really look at them, they aren't.

Which is why "WHY" matters, and can't be answered, really, by science. It can be answered with a word, but the word is the act of our own will to define. Where does a a horses' tail end and his back begin?


324 posted on 09/21/2005 2:46:03 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: JohnnyM
Science tells us how the physical world works, and quite a bit about its physical history. It does not deal in morality except in the rather peripheral role of showing us the consequence of actions. It does not deal with the desirability of particular consequences. Science does not deal with miracles except to tell us whether there is physical evidence for an event.

It is your choice to believe things for which there is no scientific evidence. Science cannot prove they didn't happen. But science is what it is, and will not be bullied into changing its assumptions or methodologies by people who don't understand what those methodologies are or how they arose.

So if you choose to believe things that aren't supported by science, you will simply have to avoid them. The conclusions of science are not going to change because the offend you. If you ignore science, you will find much of mainstream society offensive. You have no special privilege not to be offended. the Amish have lived this way for centuries. They are isolated, but they are successful.
325 posted on 09/21/2005 2:51:49 PM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: All
Post 111 links a small sampling of the evidence.

The link supposed to be to post 111 is ganz gebustet!

Anyway, the real link of interest is to post 110 by Ichneumon on an older thread.

326 posted on 09/21/2005 2:53:34 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: RadioAstronomer
Love the "Phylogeny" (UCMP) site! First one I looked at and it's a winner. Will take some time to do them all, of course.
327 posted on 09/21/2005 2:55:02 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: curiosity


DIEHARD EVOLUTIONIST'S DICTIONARY



ABIOGENESIS

That slow process by which living organisms were spontaneously generated from non-living matter. This scientific fact should not be confused with the old discredited myth of spontaneous generation by which it was once foolishly believed that living organisms arose from non-living matter. (see Law of Biogenesis).

A.C.L.U.

An organization that zealously protects our American civil liberties by preventing students in public schools from considering scientific evidence that is either consistent with creation or critical of evolution.

BIG BANG

The mechanism, or at least the noise, by which all matter and energy came into existence billions of years ago.

BIOLOGY

The branch of the exact sciences which is exclusively concerned with the evolution of living organisms by means of random mutations and natural selection.

DROSOPHILA

The "guinea pig" of the evolutionist to which we all owe a debt of gratitude for our understanding of the role of mutations in evolution. Trillions of generations of these rapidly breeding little flies have had their wings crumpled and their eyes damaged by strong mutagenic agents to provide us with a genetic insight into how man evolved from the prehominid brutes in a few thousand generations.

EVOLUTION

A truly perfect scientific theory which explaims in detail how everything in the universe came into being -- slowly. The theory of evolutions is so perfect and flexible in its ability to explain virtually all observable phemomena or opinions that it would be impossible to even conceive of an experiment capable of disproving it. (see Law).

GEOLOGIC COLUMN

A precise hierarchy of fossilized animals and plants of known age found in successive layers of stratified rock with the simplest and oldest at the bottom and the most highly evolved, i.e., most recent, at the top. Uninterrupted columns of this type may be found in any book of geology, paleontology or evolution. Bits and pieces of the column may even be found in the stratified rocks of the earth, but since these layers are often out of correct order and very incomplete, one should study the geologic column in books, not nature.

HOPEFUL MONSTER THEORY

A concept first introduced out of necessity by the geneticist, Richard Goldschmidt, which states that evolution occurs by sudden and large changes in the offspring of a species resulting in radically different but well adapted organisms, i.e. "hopeful monsters." After being widely discredited for many years this idea is being reintroduced, out of necessity, as a serious theory. The great leaps forward implicit in this theory entirely account for the absence of the "missing links." (See Punctuated Equilibrium)

INDEX FOSSILS

Fossils of animals whose ages are precisely known from the age of the rocks in which they are found, thus, serving as a means for accurately dating the rocks in which they are found as well as the age of any other fossils that may be contained therein.

LAW

In science, a statement of fact about a sequence or phenomenon that has been invariably observed to occur under known conditions such as, for example, the theory of evolution. (see Evolution).

LAW OF BIOGENESIS

Simply states the obvious...that all life comes from pre-existing life. This law, which was confirmed by Redi and Pasteur, permanently laid to rest the ludicrous idea of the ignorant ancients that living organisms could spring from inanimate matter. It should be emphasized that this law in no way precludes the slow origin of living organisms from inanimate matter through the process of evolution - after all, we are here, aren't we? (see Abiogenesis).

LIFE

The only term in this dictionary that defies definition since it has been said that "the division of matter into living and nonliving is perhaps an arbitrary one. It is a convenient method for distinguishing, for instance, a man from a rock." (quoted verbatim from The Origins of Life, by Cyril Ponnamperuma, 1962, H. P. Dutton, New York, p. 36).

MICROSPHERES

Primitive cells which have been artificially synthesized from simple laboratory reagents. As the name implies, the principal similarity between microspheres and living cells is that both are small and sort of round.

MISSING LINKS

An inconceivably vast assemblage of plants and animals which are intermediate in their evolutionary development between all of the discrete kinds of plants and animals one sees either alive or in the fossil record. Unfortunately as the name implies they are missing.

MUTATIONS

A change in the genetic material (DNA) of the cell induced by hazardous chemicals or radiation which in addition to killing or maiming organisms will, given enough time and enough mutations, inexorably lead some organisms on to an ever more successful and adaptive life.

NATURAL SELECTION

That miraculous process by which incredibly complex and useful structures, such as the eye or brain, are culled out from a vast array of random and purposeless mutations. In the distant past this marvelous natural artificer has produced the whole scope of existence from molecules to man but today it appears to be limiting its activities to such mundane matters as controlling the relative numbers of white and black moths in England.

NEO-DARWINIAN EVOLUTION

An embellishment of the old Darwinian theory of evolution, it states that random changes (mutations) in the genome of an organism will be selected for, and thus contribute to the evolution of the new species, only if they ultimately lead to a greater number of offspring. Thus, an ever-increasing rate of reproduction entirely accounts for the evolution from bacteria to man.

ONTOGENY RECAPITULATES PHYLOGENY

A law first discovered by Ernst Haeckel which if pronounced correctly and with conviction, impresses laymen and students of science in the elementary grades. Simply stated, and thus less convincingly, it means that the embryos of all animals bother to provide a historical review of many stages of their evolution during their embryological development. Although this type of reminiscing is touching and is taught in almost every general science and biology text book, it is no longer accepted by scientists or even evolutionists.

PHYLOGENETIC TREE

A tree that grows mainly in textbooks of biology and which has a variety of both contemporary and fossil animals perched on the tips of its branches. This tree clearly shows how all of these animals branched off from common ancestors a long time ago. For some reason the common ancestors are never shown sitting in the crotches of the tree. Plants presumably grow on different trees which are rather rare.

PILTDOWN MAN

Once known by all true scholars of human evolution to be an ancient ancestor of man. This true "ape man" had the jaw of a modern ape and the skull of a modern man. Today this ape-man is not so well known among true scholars of evolution.

PRIMITIVE

Old, inferior, poorly adapted, less evolved, shoddy, bungling.

PROOF

The assimilation of data in such a way that the desired conclusion seems to be the most plausible hypothesis.

PROTOZOA

As the name implies, these are known to be the first true animals on earth. If these primitive organisms had continued to adapt to their changing environment they might still be with us today.

PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM

An ad hoc hypothesis or alibi that claims the reason there are no known transitional forms in the fossil record is because evolutionary changes occur so quickly and the reason we can't see evolutionary changes in the laboratory is because they occur so slowly. (see Hopeful Monster Theory).

RADIOCARBON DATING

A remarkably precise method of actually measuring the age of any carbon-containing sample. Except for certain spurious (young) dates, radiocarbon, like other methods involving the decay of radionuclides will, given several absolutely safe assumptions, invariably indicate a ripe old age for any specimen consistent with a slow process of evolution.

SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS

One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble). We may be sure, however, that the mind-boggling increase in order, complexity and information accomplished by the evolution of chemicals to man in no way violates this law or it wouldn't have happened.

SELECTIVE PRESSURE

That natural and highly selective pressure that actually forces particularly useful structures such as brains, eyes, legs, wings and long necks on giraffes to evolve by random mutations. Unnecessary structures such as eyelids on your navel fail to evolve by chance because there is no selective pressure for this.

SPECULATION

The single most powerful tool in the hands of the evolutionists.

SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

The most important contribution of Darwin to biological thought which states that only those organisms which are fit survive, or in other words, survival is the result of being fit. By this kind of logic it can also be proven that loss of vision is a principal cause of blindness.

THEISTIC EVOLUTION

The belief that the evolutionary account of origins (where everything ascends from a very imperfect state to a more nearly perfect state) and the Biblical account of origins (where everything descends from a perfect state to a very imperfect state) are both true.

TIME

That miracle ingredient which in sufficient quantity can give scientific credibility to any hypothesis no matter how improbable. It is a well- known axiom of science for example, that given enough time virtually anything is possible - indeed you might even say it has to happen.

TREE

That which only evolution can make. (see Phylogenetic Tree).

VESTIGIAL ORGANS

Organs or other body parts, left over from evolutionary ancestors, which are no longer used or needed by an organism that has become more highly evolved by abandoning organs and getting simpler. Seventy years ago man had nearly one hundred vestigial organs such as the parathyroid, tonsils, coccyx, etc., but today he has very few vestigial organs because a good use has been discovered for most of these organs.

XERDEMA PIGMENTOSA

A disease of man in which certain enzymes which normally repair mutations of DNA fail to do so resulting in malignant tumors of the skin which are often fatal. Since it is well known that mutations were essential for the evolution of man from primitive cells, we must assume that too much of even a good thing like mutations is bad for us.


328 posted on 09/21/2005 2:55:58 PM PDT by razorbak
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To: razorbak
One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble).

This is one of about a jillion things which I believe have been corrected before in this spamming Bozo's dictionary. It was probably you who posted it before right? Too lazy to make corrections?

329 posted on 09/21/2005 3:00:46 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Suzy Quzy
If you think that reasoning is something bad you are a lost cause. Assumptions, properly tested, are the bedrock of Science. Speculation is key to understanding why one result happens and not others. Conjecture allows one to extrapolate from what was observed to actually PREDICT outcomes.

What does revelation allow one to do? You either accept it on faith, or are condemned to hell according to those that believe the revelation. How does one determine the validity of revelation? How does one sort out contradictory revelations? Careful, because those that say that God reveled the truth to them won't allow you to reason, speculate, assume, or indulge in conjecture.

And you think that all these things somehow WEAKEN the Scientific method? Because Einstein didn't accept Newtonian physics as REVALATION, he questioned it, and came up with a more descriptive theory.

Yes theory IS the correct word Suzy(low I)Q. And even if you believe that the theory of universal gravitational attraction of mass is "just a theory"; I wouldn't' recommend walking off any cliffs.
330 posted on 09/21/2005 3:16:55 PM PDT by Mylo ( scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.)
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To: VadeRetro
Yes, they conveniently left off the last part, which states "without the addition of energy."

Hmmm. It seems to me that if you look outside right now you just might be able to see what is adding energy to our earth every minute of every day. We like to call it 'The Sun'; maybe they heard of it.
331 posted on 09/21/2005 3:19:04 PM PDT by Mylo ( scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.)
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To: Mylo

Can't you read? I wrote ABSTRACT reasoning...HUGE difference.


332 posted on 09/21/2005 3:26:10 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy
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To: curiosity
"Evolution for Christians,"

Shouldn't Sunday School classes be focused on biblical teaching? Yeah, I thought it was.

333 posted on 09/21/2005 3:26:14 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: curiosity
No, it's based on physical and verifiable evidence.

No, it's based on the interpretations of evidence. Of course we all know those interpretations aren't the least bit biased.

::::sarcasm off::::

334 posted on 09/21/2005 3:28:37 PM PDT by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Mylo

I guess you believe in the theory that the levees were blown up in NO. Do you have any serious religious beliefs?


335 posted on 09/21/2005 3:29:08 PM PDT by Suzy Quzy
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To: Mylo
The typical citation of the Second Law by creationists would forbid the formation of anything as structured and energetic as Hurricane Rita, or the growth of a human from a zygote. Can't happen. Nothing ever gets wound up. Things can only wind down.

The creationist version of the Second Law has already been falsified a billion times. It gets falsified every day, all the time. This is not a law of physics. Physics has a law of the same name which has held up very well, but it also says something rather different from the creationist version. It makes no reference to the mess in your room or to the actions of an intelligent director.

336 posted on 09/21/2005 3:29:15 PM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: pby
According to the Bible, how old was Adam when he died?

I've decided the Bible is a fairy tale, because you guys insisted that I had to buy into things like a 6 day creation or reject it all.

You're the one who apparently believes in Adam. You answer the question.

337 posted on 09/21/2005 3:29:35 PM PDT by narby
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To: razorbak; VadeRetro
SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS

One of the most fundamental laws of science which essentially states that nothing can increase in order, complexity, or information but rather everything form the universe to the one-horse shay will in time fall apart (not assemble).

LOL

338 posted on 09/21/2005 3:57:13 PM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: JohnnyM
There are statements about sunsets and sunrises and Josua literally commanding the Sun to stand still, but this is not evidence that the Bible is wrong or lying or making some grand astrological point of fact.

There are also statements that say humans are animals.

e.g. Ecclesiastes 3:18

339 posted on 09/21/2005 4:01:18 PM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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To: Suzy Quzy
Now that is just silly, and once again betrays your utter ignorance of the concept of theory. Theory is not "something someone said" such as the case with the "blowing up" of levees in the Big Sleazy. A theory is the best available explanation of the pertinent data. The "blown up levee's" has no data to support it, none, not one iota. I only believe things that the EVIDENCE suggests.

And I have VERY serious religious beliefs, read my tagline.

Do you have any serious thoughts, or are you always this superficial and silly?
340 posted on 09/21/2005 4:09:39 PM PDT by Mylo ( scientific discovery is also an occasion of worship.)
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