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Intelligent design [was] old news to Darwin
Chicago Tribune ^ | 13 September 2005 | Tom Hundley

Posted on 09/13/2005 4:15:07 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

So what would Charles Darwin have to say about the dust-up between today's evolutionists and intelligent designers?

Probably nothing.

[snip]

Even after he became one of the most famous and controversial men of his time, he was always content to let surrogates argue his case.

[snip]

From his university days Darwin would have been familiar with the case for intelligent design. In 1802, nearly 30 years before the Beagle set sail, William Paley, the reigning theologian of his time, published "Natural Theology" in which he laid out his "Argument from Design."

Paley contended that if a person discovered a pocket watch while taking a ramble across the heath, he would know instantly that this was a designed object, not something that had evolved by chance. Therefore, there must be a designer. Similarly, man -- a marvelously intricate piece of biological machinery -- also must have been designed by "Someone."

If this has a familiar ring to it, it's because this is pretty much the same argument that intelligent design advocates use today.

[snip]

The first great public debate took place on June 30, 1860, in a packed hall at Oxford University's new Zoological Museum.

Samuel Wilberforce, the learned bishop of Oxford, was champing at the bit to demolish Darwin's notion that man descended from apes. As always, Darwin stayed home. His case was argued by one of his admirers, biologist Thomas Huxley.

Wilberforce drew whoops of glee from the gallery when he sarcastically asked Huxley if he claimed descent from the apes on his grandmother's side or his grandfather's. Huxley retorted that he would rather be related to an ape than to a man of the church who used half-truths and nonsense to attack science.

The argument continues unabated ...

[snip]

(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; crevo; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; thisisgettingold
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To: DaveLoneRanger

What I suspect is new, to most of the people on this thread, is how old ID really is.

Nice ammunition for any of us to use when the Creationists start talking about their "fresh new idea" that science is somehow conspiring to suppress.

ID is not a new idea. It's an old, tired one that has long outlived its usefulness.


81 posted on 09/13/2005 6:24:41 AM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Paloma_55
If morality is a human construct, then it is subject to human whim

Neither Darwin nor evolution theory make any such claim. Please see my post #48, above; much more could be said, if you are interested

Cordially

82 posted on 09/13/2005 6:25:35 AM PDT by SeaLion (I wanted to be an orphan, but my parents wouldn't let me)
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To: Paloma_55
"If morality is a human construct, then it is subject to human whim... in other words, one can change it to fit their circumstances."

Fortunately, we've had a great deal of practice at this civilization thing. Consequently, the less desirable whims usually result in jail time.

83 posted on 09/13/2005 6:26:36 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: Oztrich Boy

I just love Jack Chick. That's some of the funniest stuff I've ever read.

"NO, NOT BLACK LEAF!"

Brings a smile to my face every time.


84 posted on 09/13/2005 6:27:08 AM PDT by TOWER
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To: Wormwood
Wormwood asked:

If not, then please describe the moral implications of gravity.

But Icarus grew exhilarated by the thrill of flying and began getting careless. Flying too close to the sun, the wax holding together his wings melted from the heat and he fell to his death, drowning in the sea.

85 posted on 09/13/2005 6:28:17 AM PDT by Abogado (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt)
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To: TOWER
"Nice try, but evolution says nothing about the origin of life."

If you include Universal Common Ancestry as a part of evolution, then it does.

86 posted on 09/13/2005 6:28:40 AM PDT by johnnyb_61820
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To: dmz

---Faulty premises can lead to faulty conclusions.

Society offers greater protection (hence increased opportunities for survival) than living outside of a civilized society with its human construct morality. Loving one's neighbor as oneself is fundamental to that increased protection. Your premise that "survival of the fittest" is the opposite of "love your neighbor as yourself is not justified.---

Why does society offer better chances of survival?

Why don't cougars form such societies?


87 posted on 09/13/2005 6:29:16 AM PDT by Paloma_55
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Behe's statement of ID is entirely inference, and he quite openly admits it in his book. Yes, he goes into the science of blood clotting and the development of the eye, and shows how incredibly complex they are, irreducibly complex by his estimation. But his argument really does come down to "some things are irreducibly complex (cannot have evolved) and are therefore (by inference) designed".

Defenders of ID want no discussion of the designer, as if it doesn't really matter who or what the designer is or was. I have yet to hear any defender of ID suggest that the designer is of the material world, or even not of the material world. Seems it should be one or the other.

If not of the material world, doesn't ID end up in the same pickle as evolution - more properly abiogenesis - (how does something come from nothing), and if of the material world, why are we not able to study the designer, but only the design?


88 posted on 09/13/2005 6:30:06 AM PDT by dmz
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To: newsgatherer
OK, list the six differant definitions of evolution or the six types of evolution if you prefer, and then show me where or how they do not become interdependant upon one another.

Just for the heck of it, why don't you go ahead and tell us all what the "six types of evolution" are. : )

89 posted on 09/13/2005 6:30:08 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: SeaLion

Either morality comes from God, or it is a human construct.

If it is God-given, we have no authority to change it.

If it is human-given, it is subject to change without notice.

Ask Adolph Hitler, Mao Tse Tung, or Pol Pot.


90 posted on 09/13/2005 6:31:29 AM PDT by Paloma_55
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To: dmz
If not of the material world, doesn't ID end up in the same pickle as evolution - more properly abiogenesis - (how does something come from nothing), and if of the material world, why are we not able to study the designer, but only the design?

Bingo! ID doesn't go anywhere as 'science.' It is just trying to sneak religion past the Constitution and into the classroom

91 posted on 09/13/2005 6:33:15 AM PDT by SeaLion (I wanted to be an orphan, but my parents wouldn't let me)
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To: newsgatherer
OK, list the six differant definitions of evolution or the six types of evolution if you prefer, and then show me where or how they do not become interdependant upon one another.

Did you get your understanding of evolution from a comic book?

92 posted on 09/13/2005 6:33:45 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: atlaw; newsgatherer

93 posted on 09/13/2005 6:37:35 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Paloma_55
"If it is God-given, we have no authority to change it."

If true, why don't we stone adulterers and disobedient children anymore? Why don't we condone or permit slavery anymore? Etc., etc.

94 posted on 09/13/2005 6:39:30 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: VadeRetro
Aww gee. It would have been so entertaining to have newsgatherer cite them in a scholarly response. You're no fun.
95 posted on 09/13/2005 6:42:31 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: johnnyb_61820

Sorry, common ancestry means just what it says. That all lifeforms on earth had a common ancestor. How this ancestor came into existance in the first place does not matter a lick to the theory of evolution.


96 posted on 09/13/2005 6:43:10 AM PDT by TOWER
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To: Abogado
Question: What is the purpose of life under the theory of evolution? Answer: To survive long enough to reproduce

Question: what is the purpose of life under the theory of universal gravitation. Answer: to fall

Dumb argument, ain't it?

97 posted on 09/13/2005 6:45:00 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: atlaw
I've been stepping on a lot of fun setups lately. Lost my ear for nuance.

I love that list, BTW. The "evolutionist" professor writes a list that distinguishes evolution "between kinds" from evolution "within kind."

"Kind?" Creationists can't talk the talk, much less walk the walk.

98 posted on 09/13/2005 6:46:38 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Paloma_55
Either morality comes from God, or it is a human construct

Or--as my post #48 outlined--it could have evolved, just as life evolved, is indeed inherent in life.

If it [morality] is God-given, we have no authority to change it.

With respect, much of our human history is the history of wars about who possesses the authority of God. Or who has the 'correct' understanding of God's will. No matter what you believe, you are a heretic to someone else's religion. Every religious follower believes his God, his morality, is the right one--but they are mutually exclusive and incompatible, and that has given humanity no end of suffering

99 posted on 09/13/2005 6:47:13 AM PDT by SeaLion (I wanted to be an orphan, but my parents wouldn't let me)
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To: PatrickHenry

bump


100 posted on 09/13/2005 6:47:35 AM PDT by GOPJ (A person who will lie for you will lie against you.)
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