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Replacement Pumps Don't Exist
Los Angeles Times ^ | September 3, 2005 | Peter Pae

Posted on 09/03/2005 6:36:23 PM PDT by A. Pole

Efforts to drain New Orleans hit another snag Friday as the Army Corps of Engineers discovered that it could not buy new pumps to replace those damaged by the flooding.

Massive pumps capable of draining the city like those that have been keeping New Orleans dry for decades are no longer made and would have to be specially ordered, a process that would take too long, said Col. Richard Wagenaar, the senior corps official in New Orleans.

Instead, repair crews will have to dry out the existing pumps, which could take up to a week, before repairing them with replacement motors and parts and begin pumping water back into Lake Pontchartrain. The repair job could prolong efforts to drain the city, about 80% of which is submerged.

"These pumps are so big, you can't buy them off the shelf. You have to make them, and we don't have time for that," said Wagenaar, who spent about an hour Friday escorting President Bush around the levee damage at the 17th Street Canal.

The city, much of which is below sea level, relies on a network of 22 pumps to keep water out. Army engineers now believe eight pumps are underwater.

The latest wrinkle illustrated the enormous complexity of draining the city, which for more than 200 years had gradually built up an elaborate system to keep itself dry.

Even with the setback, Wagenaar said, the city could be drained in three to six months, mainly because engineers may finally be able to get to the largest pump station, at the end of the 17th Street Canal, as early as today.

[...]

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; US: Louisiana; US: Mississippi
KEYWORDS: cafta; corpsofengineers; free; hurricane; incompetence; katrina; katrinafailures; market; nafta; neworleans; outsourcing; trade
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To: Wonder Warthog

I've thinking about this problem all week.

I think the flooded area is less than 60 sq miles (from guesses based on simulations and satellite photos)

And, the depth varies from 0 to 8 feet at the maximum flood. The water is now down to 0 to 6 feet feet from the pictures I've seen. LP is slowly draining lowering the level.

Therefore I figure 180 sq mile feet of water or 180*640 acre feet.

Pumping station #6, the largest one, can pump 850 cu ft per sec. or about one acre foot per minute. 60 acre feet per hour. If pumping station # 6 alone is all we have it would take about 2000 hours, or 80 days.

3 times pumping station #6 would do it in 27 days.

This range is pretty well in agreement with Corps estimates of 36 to 96 days after full pumping starts.


321 posted on 09/04/2005 11:38:05 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: anymouse
I think the refineries are going to need those pumps!
322 posted on 09/04/2005 11:43:44 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: unixfox
Well maybe so. Or maybe the Mayans just didn't make it through some big floods.
323 posted on 09/04/2005 11:46:04 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Gee I wonder who would really know where all the big pumps are. Could it be the Corps? Nah.
324 posted on 09/04/2005 11:49:02 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: skinkinthegrass

No, we'll just give the money to Kerry/Kennedy (water experts) to build I-93 100 feet below Boston Harbor. Like to see their evacuation plan!


325 posted on 09/04/2005 11:51:42 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: Issaquahking

Aren't we still using those pipelines. Won't they be mad if we take their pumps?

(wrong pump curve anyway)


326 posted on 09/04/2005 11:53:58 AM PDT by John Jamieson (Hybrids are a highway around CAFE, that's all they're good for.)
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To: A. Pole

Good planning you idiot mayor.
Would it not be intelligent to have some backup pumps (and motors to run then) stored on higher ground?
Also would it not be wise to also store spare electric motors and other elec components on higher ground?
You could use the existing pumps and swap out the elec stuff that got shorted out?
Would you not plan for this?
I would if I was in charge of this corrupt city.
The mayor probably diverted the money for his cronies instead.
Sick.


327 posted on 09/04/2005 11:56:13 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (The Democrat party is the official party of the Morlocks.)
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To: Cvengr
All they have to do is contact one of the Big Six natural gas pipelines, offer a contract, and they might have their pumps on line in about 3 days

But..but...but what will the governor, mayor, and levee board members think (for weeks) about that???

Seriously, that is an excellent idea and I would bet that something like that has been offered up among ideas but don't expect the locals to move on it. :o(

328 posted on 09/04/2005 12:12:31 PM PDT by daybreakcoming (May God bless those who enter the valley of the shadow of death so that we may see the light of day.)
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To: John Jamieson; _Jim
John,

Not likely. The Alaska pipeline system as originally designed was with 12 pumping stations. Stations 7 and 11 were just wide spots that never had pumping facilities.It has been idled back now to only 4 stations doing the bulk of the work.

Anyway, the pumps are old GE or Rolls-Royce Turbines that are no longer safely rated for flight, but fine for old work horses. They crank out at at 3,300rpm, bout 13,000 H.P. and couple right up to the pumps. If it works for crude oil, I'm sure they have something that can pump crud like the LA unsanitary sludge.

I'd be on the phone to GE Tuesday morning, or better yet, if Jack Welch(sp?) were available to help (former GE CEO). Then use information that they could give me to send a workable solution (probably by barge) to crisis site. Freeper named _Jim here would be excellent adition to the team if he were to want to go. There are others here in the thread that have some good ideas also. Unless they want me to be more than an armchair general at the keyboard, that is about all I can contribute to this thread.
329 posted on 09/04/2005 12:39:45 PM PDT by Issaquahking
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To: John Jamieson
No, we'll just give the money to Kerry/Kennedy (water experts) to build I-93 100 feet below Boston Harbor. Like to see their evacuation plan!

being solidly leftwing, boston is immune from hurricanes. no creation of W would ever be allowed there.

330 posted on 09/04/2005 12:41:41 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (we don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

I agree. Me thinks wet motors and motor controllers are the real problem. I don't understand why the pumps themselves would need replacing?

But when so many lives are at stake you would think an extra pump would have been in storage. (Did they check in the school buses?)


331 posted on 09/04/2005 1:17:50 PM PDT by chickenlips
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To: ninenot
The A-C engineer who designed the internals of the Hoover Dam lived around the corner from us...

You can bet that the knowledge on how to create such projects went with him. Years worth of experience on what works, what didn't, and how to analyze the process are the property of senior engineers who have been forced out for the past twenty years without passing on that knowledge. There is no text book that tells you how to build a pump as big as a house.

Yet on this forum we read the opinions of complete fools (who no doubt are working careers in marketing and finance) that America is losing none of its manufacturing capabilities or can build anything it wants to at any time.

332 posted on 09/04/2005 1:18:23 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: AnAmericanMother
I am sorry but your daddy's days are gone. The Corps (at least this part of it) is nothing more than a bunch of mouse pushing bureaucrats.
333 posted on 09/04/2005 1:22:01 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Never corner anything meaner than you. NSDQ)
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To: chickenlips
But when so many lives are at stake you would think an extra pump would have been in storage.

Or that the water-sensitive parts might be situated on high ground...but hey, I'm obviously not an expert. Clearly if anything could have been done, the experts would have done it. < /dripping sarc>

334 posted on 09/04/2005 1:22:46 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (we don't need no stinkin' tagline.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

Not for nothing but they could bus the water out. Now that they have buses. /sarcasm off


335 posted on 09/04/2005 1:23:24 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Never corner anything meaner than you. NSDQ)
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To: elli1

Actually the Netherlands got their pumps from NO!


336 posted on 09/04/2005 1:36:12 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: TazforPrez

I agree; rebuild a "sewer" of a city, you'll just get a newer sewer.

I think it's time to visit the concept of "busing" on a much larger scale. Busing was meant to improve the chances of inner-city black children of getting a real education, invariably by transporting them to predominantly white schools.

We see what happens on an urban scale when so many congregate in one area: you get a New Orleans or a Detroit. Filthy, incredibly crime-ridden hellholes. What if it was decided no more than 12% of any particular area/city/neighborhood could be of one race to better ensure diversity, etc., EXACTLY like busing was supposed to accomplish?

What if all these people were relocated in smaller groups to communities in Iowa, Vermont, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Idaho, etc.? Would this not accomplish for them what busing was supposed to accomplish for their kids?

Would we have the lowlife, murderous, raping gangs that we now see in NO? Nope.

Just a thought, but one that has been nagging at me for days now. May develop this idea into a thread of its own, but damned if I won't be called "racist" for it.


337 posted on 09/04/2005 1:36:56 PM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Wonder Warthog

Wonder you really don't understand the magnitude of the problem. The solution you provide would NEVER empty the city. NEVER. Every time it rained the city would fill back up. They need real pumps.


338 posted on 09/04/2005 1:44:56 PM PDT by Nov3 ("This is the best election night in history." --DNC chair Terry McAuliffe Nov. 2,2004 8p.m.)
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To: A. Pole
So they are going to pump water full of oil, chemicals and feces into Lake Pontchartrain? Nothing like intentionally expanding the hazmat cleanup perimeter for the sake of convenience.
339 posted on 09/04/2005 1:51:23 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Nov3
"Wonder you really don't understand the magnitude of the problem. The solution you provide would NEVER empty the city. NEVER. Every time it rained the city would fill back up. They need real pumps."

Prove it. Maybe your assumptions will be better than Bannon's.

A million gallons a minute is my bid.

340 posted on 09/04/2005 1:55:37 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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