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Adam, Eve and T. Rex
LA Times ^ | 8/27/05 | Ashley Powers

Posted on 08/27/2005 9:28:07 PM PDT by Crackingham

Dinny the roadside dinosaur has found religion. The 45-foot-high concrete apatosaurus has towered over Interstate 10 near Palm Springs for nearly three decades as a kitschy prehistoric pit stop for tourists. Now he is the star of a renovated attraction that disputes the fact that dinosaurs died off millions of years before humans first walked the planet.

Dinny's new owners, pointing to the Book of Genesis, contend that most dinosaurs arrived on Earth the same day as Adam and Eve, some 6,000 years ago, and later marched two by two onto Noah's Ark. The gift shop at the attraction, called the Cabazon Dinosaurs, sells toy dinosaurs whose labels warn, "Don't swallow it! The fossil record does not support evolution."

The Cabazon Dinosaurs join at least half a dozen other roadside attractions nationwide that use the giant reptiles' popularity in seeking to win converts to creationism. And more are on the way.

"We're putting evolutionists on notice: We're taking the dinosaurs back," said Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, a Christian group building a $25-million creationist museum in Petersburg, Ky., that's already overrun with model sauropods and velociraptors.

"They're used to teach people that there's no God, and they're used to brainwash people," he said. "Evolutionists get very upset when we use dinosaurs. That's their star."

The nation's top paleontologists find the creation theory preposterous and say children are being misled by dinosaur exhibits that take the Jurassic out of "Jurassic Park."

"Dinosaurs lived in the Garden of Eden, and Noah's Ark? Give me a break," said Kevin Padian, curator at the University of California Museum of Paleontology in Berkeley and president of National Center for Science Education, an Oakland group that supports teaching evolution. "For them, 'The Flintstones' is a documentary."

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: antichristianbigots; christians; cnim; dinosaurs; genesis; museum
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To: SolarisRocks

I just looked up Anacondas for fun. 400 pounds when full grown, 9 oz when born. So that's about a 700 to one ration vs a human ratio of 20ish to one. Then there is that whole dependence issue I also mentioned.


361 posted on 08/30/2005 10:15:10 AM PDT by biblewonk (A house of cards built on Matt 16:18)
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To: bondserv
Oversized reptiles? That's it????? By your definition, a 20 foot Orinoco croc would be classed as a dinosaur!

Distinguishing characteristics of a dinosaur:

"S" curve in the cervical vertebrae.
Erect stance, legs do not sprawl.
Diapsid skull.
Endothermy.
Lays hard shelled amniotic eggs.
Teeth in sockets, or keratin covered beak.

Sixty-five million years is fact. Rita Rudner is comedy, so is basing a definition of a whole monophyletic group upon a characteristic not found in 90% of specimens of that group. Ever hear of Eoraptor? One of the earliest known dinosaurs (Triassic period) and my Yorkie terrier is bigger than that animal was. Does that make my Yorkie a dinosaur? Ever seen a Canada goose? How about a robin or a sparrow? Those are maniraptoran theropods....dinosaurs.

Pluck the feathers from any given bird, and you will notice something: The "s" curve in the neck, the erect leg placement, the diapsid skull with the sclerotic ring found primarily in theropods, the keratin covered beak (and occasionally a bird hatches that has teeth....suppressor genes have denied most birds teeth for multiple millions of years, but the genetic material for dentition is still present), and birds are endothermic. Birds are simply derived theropods.....dinosaurs. Crocs are primitive archosaurs, related to dinosaurs, but not dinosaurs. And size has nothing to do with it.

362 posted on 08/30/2005 10:15:58 AM PDT by Bombardier ("Religion of Peace" my butt.....sell that snakeoil to someone who'll buy it!)
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To: bondserv

Yes I am very well aware of Job, and one does not jump in at the end of instruction and keep what the subject matter is.

Start with Job 38 which establishes what is being asked of Job and then when Job is asked do you remember nowhere does Job say ah yes I remember that battle at the dino corral.

Telling Job about the First heaven/earth age before the souls were placed in the flesh. Suppose to be instruction to US this day about who the enemy is what he is allowed to do and Who created alll things in HIS TIME.


Hey good to chat with you but got things to do, later.


363 posted on 08/30/2005 10:17:57 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Bombardier
Christ was perfect, evolution is not about perfection it is about mutations, jumping species and evolution points a finger in the eye of the Heavenly Father. Flesh man because of allll their imperfections could well fit the fable of evolution, however, that requires leaving out Christ as HE was perfect, yet He came to this earth born of woman, to be the final perfect blood sacrifice, and through his death salvation was offered to any would follow him.

You have no problem slandering anyone who does not believe in evolution BASED upon your faith, practice what you preach. You are not 'gods' yet.
364 posted on 08/30/2005 10:25:37 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Modernman

Could they all be wrong? Sure. Anything is possible, I suppose. But the massive weight of all the available evidence leads to the conclusion that humans and dinosaurs did not live at the same time.



No that's not true. The massive amount of information that evolutionary scientists release says that man and dinosaur did not live at the same time; however, there is an insurmountable amount of evidence which dictate that they did. The many tales of men battling dragons(which have been mythicized) can be a clue to interactions with dinosaurs(a term not used until the late 1800's)The physical descriptions of dragons are strangely similar to dinosaurs(now how can that be if such creatures were never seen by men). There are cave drawings of creatures that can't be anything but dinosaurs and again how could those who painted them have known to do so if they had never seen them? Another thing, down in Texas there is a national park that is well known for its fossils and dinosaur tracks. At this park there is very damaging evidence that dinosaurs and man were contemporaries. Dinosaur tracks and human fossilized in the same strata of rock. An evolutionary scientist as part of the PBS program NOVA was asked to come and view it and comment on it along with a creationists and HE WOULD NOT LOOK AT IT. His reasoning was, "If I don't see it, then it doesn't exist." Needless to say that the NOVA program producers edited out all of the footage of the fossils and the creationist and only showed the footage of the evolsciguy saying that there's no such thing there. Guess what? the fossils prints are there.


365 posted on 08/30/2005 10:41:36 AM PDT by CAPTAINSUPERMARVELMAN
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To: CAPTAINSUPERMARVELMAN
The many tales of men battling dragons(which have been mythicized) can be a clue to interactions with dinosaurs(a term not used until the late 1800's)

What other mythological beasts do you believe existed, based on old stories? Mermaids? Pegasi? Vampires?

The physical descriptions of dragons are strangely similar to dinosaurs(now how can that be if such creatures were never seen by men).

Fossils have always been around. Don't you think that the discovery of a T. Rex skull by primitive humans might lead to all sorts of stories about dragons and monsters?

There are cave drawings of creatures that can't be anything but dinosaurs and again how could those who painted them have known to do so if they had never seen them?

Fossils, again. Assuming that such pictures actually exist. Do you have a source?

Another thing, down in Texas there is a national park that is well known for its fossils and dinosaur tracks. At this park there is very damaging evidence that dinosaurs and man were contemporaries. Dinosaur tracks and human fossilized in the same strata of rock.

(Sigh) Even Answers In Genesis says that creationists should not rely on the Paluxy tracks

An evolutionary scientist as part of the PBS program NOVA was asked to come and view it and comment on it along with a creationists and HE WOULD NOT LOOK AT IT. His reasoning was, "If I don't see it, then it doesn't exist."

Sceintists are well aware of the Paluxy tracks. There's really nothing special about them.

366 posted on 08/30/2005 10:55:10 AM PDT by Modernman ("A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy." -Disraeli)
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To: Just mythoughts

So Catholics who follow church teaching think we're gods? Why does it not surprise me that you couldn't go without condemning a Christian who is not a fundamentalist for not sharing your beliefs?


And for your edification, evolution is about CHANGE. Period. It has NOTHING to do with "perfection" but has everything to do with understanding. It is entirely possible to be a Christian and NOT take the Old Testament creation stories literally for one reason: They are meant to be morality stories. They teach a lesson about the strength of God and the fallibility of man, but also that man can redeem himself. The point of the flood story isn't that someone built a boat and put animals on it, it's that GOD GIVES SECOND CHANCES.

Religion is faith....it comes from within. Science is understanding....it comes from without. A closed mind that can only see things literally is a waste of what God created. It's attitudes such as those expressed by the creationists and the literalists that drive many good souls from the Church....you might want to think about that sometime.


367 posted on 08/30/2005 12:46:06 PM PDT by Bombardier ("Religion of Peace" my butt.....sell that snakeoil to someone who'll buy it!)
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To: bondserv

Do you always make up facts to support you cause?

http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/dinoblood.html

"Normally, following death, the remains are destroyed through scavenging and decomposition. However, during fossilization, hard materials are replaced with minerals. Normally, bacterial enter into the center of bones through breaks or through the holes through which blood vessels and nerves pass. The soft tissue is usually destroyed within a short period of time. In this instance, the soft tissue seems to have been preserved through dehydration and sealed from the presence of water and further decomposition. Contrary to the claims of some young earth creationists, the tissue is obviously not fresh, since it exhibits coloring that is not characteristic of fresh tissue. Fresh blood vessels and connective tissue are nearly transparent (except the blood cells themselves), which is why the ostrich tissue had to be chemically stained to produce the pictures used in the article. Another difference between the ostrich tissue and T rex material was the requirement to use collagenase to release blood vessels from ostrich bone matrix. This fact indicates that much of the collagen from the T rex sample was already degraded. The primary author indicated that the bones have a distinct odor, characteristic of "embalming fluids."2 Therefore, it is possible that the bones landed in some chemical stew that preserved the soft tissue inside from decomposition. For example, peat bogs produce chemicals that have preserved human bodies for thousands of years. It is likely that some similar rare process has preserved the soft tissue inside some T. rex bones."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4379577.stm


368 posted on 08/30/2005 1:44:19 PM PDT by SolarisRocks
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To: newsgatherer
Where did you get 45-55 inches high?

Sorry. I meant 45 to 55 feet high.

369 posted on 08/30/2005 3:04:42 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Elsie

I notice that you never put up an argument against any posts. I guess you are just not capable of putting together a logical string of thoughts.


370 posted on 08/30/2005 3:44:25 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: bondserv
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar:

Dum Dum's interpret this to mean he had a tail like a cedar. But then Dum Dum's never made it past the fourth grade.

371 posted on 08/30/2005 3:50:12 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: bondserv
JOB 40:14 \40:19\He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach him.

JOB 40:15 \40:20\Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

JOB 40:16 \40:21\He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.Not really that big.

JOB 40:17 \40:22\The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook encompass him.Willows are not that big...

JOB 40:18 \40:23\Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.If you have to be literal in your interpretation, how do you explain that he could draw up Jordan into his mouth? hmmmm

JOB 40:19 \40:24\He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

JOB 40:20 \41:1\Canst thou draw out leviathan with a hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

JOB 40:21 \41:2\Canst thou put a hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

372 posted on 08/30/2005 3:56:29 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: newsgatherer
But, as an 'ignorant creationists'

an is singular, creationists is plural.

373 posted on 08/30/2005 3:58:20 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Just mythoughts
requires leaving out Christ as HE was perfect, yet He came to this earth born of woman,

If you are going to relate Jesus to mortal man, you have got a problem with that virgin birth thing.

374 posted on 08/30/2005 4:01:58 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Bombardier
"And for your edification, evolution is about CHANGE. Period. It has NOTHING to do with "perfection" but has everything to do with understanding. It is entirely possible to be a Christian and NOT take the Old Testament creation stories literally for one reason: They are meant to be morality stories. They teach a lesson about the strength of God and the fallibility of man, but also that man can redeem himself. The point of the flood story isn't that someone built a boat and put animals on it, it's that GOD GIVES SECOND CHANCES."


There is a difference in following the Words of Christ and what a church holds as doctrine.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God.

Now how convenient that church teaches don't take such and such literally when Paul himself said these thing happened to them for our warning as to what the end of this age would be.

Now you are FREE to choose what you choose to believe but you have NO authority to LORD over others supremacy of your belief when it downplays the very WORD of God.

Christ said let NO man deceive you and that has been my search to avoid that deception by man.
375 posted on 08/30/2005 4:07:22 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: CAPTAINSUPERMARVELMAN

http://shop5.gospelcom.net/isroot/AIGUS/Thumbnail_White/30-9-093.jpg

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

Arguments we think creationists should NOT use
Q&A Topics: Q&A Index pageAlien/UFOsAnthropology & Ape-menApologeticsArchaeologyArguments NOT to useAstronomy & AstrophysicsBibleBiographies -

CreationistsCloningCommunism & NazismCountering the CriticsCreation CompromisesCreation: Why It MattersDarwin, CharlesDesign

FeaturesDinosaursEducationEmbryonic RecapitulationEnvironmentalismFamily & MarriageFloodFossilsGeocentrismGenesisGeneticsGeologyGodHistoryHuman Life:

AbortionIce AgeInformation TheoryJesus ChristLinguisticsMammothsMorality and EthicsMutationsNatural SelectionNoah’s ArkOrigin of LifePhilosophyPlate

TectonicsProbabilitiesRacismRadiometric DatingReligion (humanism, etc.)ScienceScopes’ TrialSpeciationThermodynamics and Order‘Vestigial’ OrgansYoung Age

Evidence
The primary authority for Answers in Genesis is the infallible Word of God, the Bible (see Q&A Bible). All theories of science are fallible, and new data

often overturn previously held theories. Evolutionists continually revise their theories because of new data, so it should not be surprising or distressing

that some creationist scientific theories need to be revised too.

The first article on this page sums up what the creationists’ attitude should be about various ideas and theories. The other articles provide examples of

arguments that should no longer be used; some arguments are definitely fallacious, while others are merely doubtful or unsubstantiated. We provide brief

explanations why, and/or hyperlinks to other articles on this Web site with more detailed explanations. We don’t claim that this list is exhaustive—it will

be updated with additions and maybe deletions as new evidence is discovered. Many of these arguments have never been promoted by AiG, and some have not been

promoted by any major creationist organization (so they were not directed at anyone in particular), but are instead straw men set up by anti-creationists.

It is notable that some skeptics criticise creationists when they retract doubtful arguments, but these are also the same people who accuse creationists of

being unwilling to change their minds!

Persisting in using discredited arguments simply rebounds—it’s the truth that sets us free (John 8:32), not error, and Christ is ‘the truth’ (John 14:6)!

Since there is so much good evidence for creation, there is no need to use any of the ‘doubtful’ arguments.

This page also shows why it is important for people to stay up-to-date with sound creationist literature, since these publications (e.g. Creation magazine,

and TJ) have already revealed the fallacious nature of some of these arguments.

*For AiG’s point-by-point response to Kent Hovind’s attempted critique of this page, see Maintaining Creationist Integrity.





What is important for creationists to defend, and what should be held more loosely?
‘Hanging Loose’: What should we defend?
Which arguments should definitely not be used?
‘Darwin recanted on his deathbed’. Many people use this story, originally from a Lady Hope. However, it is almost certainly not true, and there is no

corroboration from those who were closest to him, even from Darwin’s wife Emma, who never liked evolutionary ideas. Also, even if true, so what? If Ken Ham

recanted Creation, would that disprove it? There is no value to this argument whatever.

‘Moon-Dust thickness proves a young moon’. For a long time, creationists claimed that the dust layer on the moon was too thin if dust had truly been falling

on it for billions of years. They based this claim on early estimates—by evolutionists—of the influx of moon dust, and worries that the moon landers would

sink into this dust layer. But these early estimates were wrong, and by the time of the Apollo landings, NASA was not worried about sinking. So the dust

layer thickness can’t be used as proof of a young moon (or of an old one either). See also Moon Dust and the Age of the Solar System (Technical).

‘NASA computers, in calculating the positions of planets, found a missing day and 40 minutes, proving Joshua’s “long day” and Hezekiah’s sundial movement of

Joshua 10 and 2 Kings 20.’ Not promoted by major creationist organizations, but an hoax in wide circulation, especially on the Internet.

Essentially the same story, now widely circulated on the Internet, appeared in the somewhat unreliable 1936 book The Harmony of Science and Scripture by

Harry Rimmer. Evidently an unknown person embellished it with modern organization names and modern calculating devices.

Also, the whole story is mathematically impossible—it requires a fixed reference point before Joshua’s long day. In fact we would need to cross-check between

both astronomical and historical records to detect any missing day. And to detect a missing 40 minutes requires that these reference points be known to

within an accuracy of a few minutes. It is certainly true that the timing of solar eclipses observable from a certain location can be known precisely. But

the ancient records did not record time that precisely, so the required cross-check is simply not possible. Anyway, the earliest historically recorded

eclipse occurred in 1217 BC, nearly two centuries after Joshua. So there is no way the missing day could be detected by any computer. See also Has NASA

Discovered a ‘Missing Day’? for historical and scientific documentation that this alleged discovery is mythological.

Note that discrediting this myth doesn’t mean that the events of Joshua 10 didn’t happen. Features in the account support its reliability, e.g. the moon was

also slowed down. This was not necessary to prolong the day, but this would be observed from Earth’s reference frame if God had accomplished this miracle by

slowing Earth’s rotation. See Joshua’s long day—did it really happen?

‘Woolly mammoths were snap frozen during the Flood catastrophe’. This is contradicted by the geological setting in which mammoths are found. It’s most likely

that they perished toward the end of the Ice Age, possibly in catastrophic dust storms. Partially digested stomach contents are not proof of a snap freeze,

because the elephant’s stomach functions as a holding area—a mastodon with preserved stomach contents was found in mid-western USA, where the ground was not

frozen. See also technical PDF article.

‘The Castenedolo and Calaveras human remains in “old” strata invalidate the geologic column.’ These are not sound examples—the Castenedolo skeletal material

shows evidence of being an intrusive burial, i.e. a recent burial into older strata, since all the fossils apart from the human ones had time to be

impregnated with salt. The Calaveras skull was probably a hoax planted into a mine by miners. For the current AiG view on human fossil stratigraphy, see

Where are all the human fossils? from the Answers Book.

‘Dubois renounced Java man as a “missing link” and claimed it was just a giant gibbon.’ Evolutionary anthropology textbooks claimed this, and creationists

followed suit. However, this actually misunderstood Dubois, as Stephen Jay Gould has shown. It’s true that Dubois claimed that Java man (which he called

Pithecanthropus erectus) had the proportions of a gibbon. But Dubois had an eccentric view of evolution (universally discounted today) that demanded a

precise correlation between brain size and body weight. Dubois’ claim about Java man actually contradicted the reconstructed evidence of its likely body

mass. But it was necessary for Dubois’ idiosyncratic proposal that the alleged transitional sequence leading to man fit into a mathematical series. So

Dubois’ gibbon claim was designed to reinforce its ‘missing link‘ status. See Who was ‘Java man’?

‘The Japanese trawler Zuiyo Maru caught a dead plesiosaur near New Zealand’. This carcass was almost certainly a rotting basking shark, since their gills and

jaws rot rapidly and fall off, leaving the typical small ‘neck’ with the head. This has been shown by similar specimens washed up on beaches. Also, detailed

anatomical and biochemical studies of the Zuiyo-maru carcass show that it could not have been a plesiosaur. See Live plesiosaurs: weighing the evidence and

Letting rotting sharks lie: Further evidence that the Zuiyo-maru carcass was a basking shark, not a plesiosaur

‘The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall’. This law says that the entropy (‘disorder’) of the Universe increases over time, and some have thought

that this was the result of the Curse. However, disorder isn’t always harmful. An obvious example is digestion, breaking down large complex food molecules

into their simple building blocks. Another is friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat—otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped

as they walked with God in Eden! A less obvious example to laymen might be the sun heating the Earth—to a physical chemist, heat transfer from a hot object

to a cold one is the classic case of the Second Law in action. Also, breathing is based on another classic Second Law process, gas moving from a high

pressure to low pressure. Finally, all beneficial processes in the world, including the development from embryo to adult, increase the overall disorder of

the universe, showing that the Second Law is not inherently a curse.

Death and suffering of nephesh animals before sin are contrary to the Biblical framework above, as are suffering (or ‘groaning in travail’ (Rom. 8:20–22)).

It is more likely that God withdrew some of His sustaining power (Col. 1:15–17) at the Fall so that the decay effect of the Second Law was no longer

countered.

‘If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes today?’ In response to this statement, some evolutionists point out that they don’t believe that we

descended from apes, but that apes and humans share a common ancestor. However, the evolutionary paleontologist G.G. Simpson had no time for this

‘pussyfooting’, as he called it. He said, ‘In fact, that earlier ancestor would certainly be called an ape or monkey in popular speech by anyone who saw it.

Since the terms ape and monkey are defined by popular usage, man’s ancestors were apes or monkeys (or successively both). It is pusillanimous [mean-spirited]

if not dishonest for an informed investigator to say otherwise.’

However, the main point against this statement is that many evolutionists believe that a small group of creatures split off from the main group and became

reproductively isolated from the main large population, and that most change happened in the small group which can lead to allopatric speciation (a

geographically isolated population forming a new species). So there's nothing in evolutionary theory that requires the main group to become extinct.

It’s important to note that allopatric speciation is not the sole property of evolutionists—creationists believe that most human variation occurred after

small groups became isolated (but not speciated) at Babel, while Adam and Eve probably had mid-brown skin color. The quoted erroneous statement is analogous

to saying ‘If all people groups came from Adam and Eve, then why are mid-brown people still alive today?’

So what’s the difference between the creationist explanation of people groups (‘races’) and the evolutionist explanation of people origins? Answer: the

former involves separation of already-existing information and loss of information through mutations; the latter requires the generation of tens of millions

of ‘letters’ of new information.

‘Women have one more rib than men.’ AiG has long pointed out the fallacy of this statement, which seems to be more popular with dishonest skeptics wanting to

caricature creation. The removal of a rib would not affect the genetic instructions passed on to the offspring, any more than a man who loses a finger will

have sons with nine fingers. Any skeptic who tries to discredit the Bible with this argument must be a closet Lamarckian, i.e. one who believes Lamarck’s

thoroughly discredited idea of inheritance of acquired characteristics! Note also that Adam wouldn’t have had a permanent defect, because the rib is the one

bone that can regrow if the surrounding membrane (periosteum) is left intact. See Regenerating ribs: Adam and that ‘missing’ rib.

‘Archaeopteryx is a fraud’. Archaeopteryx was genuine (unlike Archaeoraptor, a ‘Piltdown bird’), as shown by anatomical studies and close analysis of the

fossil slab. It was a true bird, not a ‘missing link’.

‘There are no beneficial mutations.’ This is not true, since some changes do confer an advantage in some situations. Rather, we should say, ‘We have yet to

find a mutation that increases genetic information, even in those rare instances where the mutation confers an advantage.’ For examples of information loss

being advantageous, see Beetle Bloopers: defects can be an advantage sometimes, New eyes for blind cave fish? and Is antibiotic resistance really due to

increase in information?

‘No new species have been produced.’ This is not true—new species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation

model. But this speciation is within the ‘kind’, and involves no new genetic information. See Q&A: Speciation.

‘Earth’s axis was vertical before the Flood.’ There is no basis for this claim. Seasons are mentioned in Genesis 1:14 before the Flood, which strongly

suggests an axial tilt from the beginning. Some creationists believe that a change in axial tilt (but not from the vertical) started Noah’s Flood. But a lot

more evidence is needed and this idea should be regarded as speculative for now. Furthermore, computer modelling suggests that an upright axis would make

temperature differences between the poles and equator far more extreme than now, while the current tilt of 23.5° is ideal. The Moon has an important function

in stabilizing this tilt, and the Moon’s large relative size and the fact that its orbital plane is close to the Earth’s (unlike most moons in our solar

system) are design features.

‘Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed.’ Some prominent creationist promoters of these tracks have long since withdrawn their support.

Some of the allegedly human tracks may be artefacts of erosion of dinosaur tracks obscuring the claw marks. There is a need for properly documented research

on the tracks before we would use them to argue the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs. However there is much evidence that dinosaurs and humans

co-existed—see Q&A: Dinosaurs.

Darwin’s quote about the absurdity of eye evolution from Origin of Species. Citing his statement at face value is subtly out of context. Darwin was talking

about its seeming absurdity but then said that after all it was quite easy to imagine that the eye could be built step-by-step (in his opinion, with which

AiG obviously disagrees—see Darwin v The Eye and An eye for creation).

‘Earth’s division in the days of Peleg (Gen. 10:25) refers to catastrophic splitting of the continents.’ Commentators both before and after Lyell and Darwin

(including Calvin, Keil and Delitzsch, and Leupold) are almost unanimous that this passage refers to linguistic division at Babel and subsequent territorial

division. We should always interpret Scripture with Scripture, and there’s nothing else in Scripture to indicate that this referred to continental division.

But only eight verses on (note that chapter and verse divisions were not inspired), the Bible states, ‘Now the whole earth had one language and one speech’

(Gen. 11:1), and as a result of their disobedience, ‘the LORD confused the language of all the earth’ (Gen. 11:9). This conclusively proves that the ‘Earth’

that was divided was the same Earth that spoke only one language, i.e. ‘Earth’ refers in this context to the people of the Earth, not Planet Earth.

Another major problem is the scientific consequences of such splitting—another global flood! This gives us the clue as to when the continents did move apart

— during Noah’s Flood — see below on plate tectonics.

‘The Septuagint records the correct Genesis chronology.’ This is not so. The Septuagint chronologies are demonstrably inflated, and contain the (obvious)

error that Methuselah lived 17 years after the Flood. The Masoretic Text (on which almost all English translations are based) preserves the correct

chronology. See Williams, P., Some remarks preliminary to a Biblical chronology, CEN Technical Journal12(1):98–106, 1998.

‘There are gaps in the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 so the Earth may be 10,000 years old or even more.’ This is not so. The language is clear that they

are strict chronologies, especially because they give the age of the father at the birth of the next name in line. So the Earth is only about 6,000 years

old. See Biblical genealogies for exegetical proof.

‘Jesus cannot have inherited genetic material from Mary, otherwise He would have inherited original sin.’ This is not stated in Scripture and even

contradicts important points. The language of the NT indicates physical descent, which must be true for Jesus to have fulfilled the prophecies that He would

be a descendant of Abraham, Jacob, Judah and David. Also, the Protevangelium of Gen. 3:15, regarded as Messianic by both early Christians and the Jewish

Targums, refers to ‘the seed of the woman’. This is supported by Gal. 4:4, ‘God sent forth His Son, coming (genomenon) from a woman.’ Most importantly, for

Jesus to have died for our sins, Jesus, the ‘last Adam’ (1 Cor. 15:45), had to share in our humanity (Heb. 2:14), so must have been our relative via common

descent from the first Adam as Luke 3:38 says. In fact, seven centuries before His Incarnation, the Prophet Isaiah spoke of Him as literally the

‘Kinsman-Redeemer’, i.e. one who is related by blood to those he redeems (Isaiah 59:20, uses the same Hebrew word goel as used to describe Boaz in relation

to Ruth). To answer the concern about original sin, the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary (Luke 1:35), preventing any sin nature being transmitted. See also The

Virginal Conception of Christ for a defence of this foundational doctrine and further discussion of these Biblical passages.

‘The phrase “science falsely so called” in 1 Timothy 6:20 (KJV) refers to evolution.’ To develop a Scriptural model properly, we must understand what the

author intended to communicate to his intended audience, which in turn is determined by the grammar and historical context. We must not try to read into

Scripture that which appears to support a particular viewpoint. The original Greek word translated ‘science’ is gnosis, and in this context refers to the

élite esoteric ‘knowledge’ that was the key to the mystery religions, which later developed into the heresy of Gnosticism. This was not an error by the KJV

translators, but an illustration of how many words have changed their meanings over time. The word ‘science’ originally meant ‘knowledge’, from the Latin

scientia, from scio meaning ‘know’. This original meaning is just not the way it is used today, so modern translations correctly render the word as

‘knowledge’ in this passage.

Of course AiG believes that evolution is anti-knowledge because it clouds the minds of many to the abundant evidence of God’s action in Creation and the true

knowledge available in His Word, the Bible. But as this page points out, it is wrong to use fallacious arguments to support a true viewpoint. On a related

matter, it is linguistically fallacious to claim that even now, ‘science really means knowledge’, because meaning is determined by usage, not derivation

(etymology).

‘Geocentrism (in the classical sense of taking the Earth as an absolute reference frame) is taught by Scripture and Heliocentrism is anti-Scriptural.’ AiG

rejects this dogmatic geocentrism, and believes that the Biblical passages about sunset etc. should be understood as taking the Earth as a reference frame,

but that this is one of many physically valid reference frames; the centre of mass of the solar system is also a valid reference frame. See also Q&A:

Geocentrism, Faulkner, D., Geocentrism and Creation , TJ15(2):110–121; 2001.

‘Ron Wyatt has found Noah’s Ark’ This claimed Ark shape is a natural geological formation caused by a mud flow.

‘Ron Wyatt has found much archaeological proof of the Bible’ There is not the slightest substantiation for Wyatt’s claims, just excuses to explain away why

the evidence is missing.

Many of Carl Baugh’s creation ‘evidences’. Sorry to say, AiG thinks that he’s well meaning but that he unfortunately uses a lot of material that is not sound

scientifically. So we advise against relying on any ‘evidence’ he provides, unless supported by creationist organisations with reputations for Biblical and

scientific rigour. Unfortunately, there are talented creationist speakers with reasonably orthodox understandings of Genesis (e.g. Kent Hovind) who continue

to promote some of the Wyatt and Baugh ‘evidences’ despite being approached on the matter (ed. note: see our Maintaining Creationist Integrity, our response

to Hovind’s reply to this article).

‘Missing solar neutrinos prove that the sun shines by gravitational collapse, and is proof of a young sun.’ This is about a formerly vexing problem of

detecting only one third of the predicted numbers of neutrinos from the sun. Also, accepted theories of particle physics said that the neutrino had zero rest

mass, which would prohibit oscillations from one ‘flavour’ to another. Therefore, consistent with the data then available, some creationists proposed that

the sun was powered one-third by fusion and two-thirds by gravitational collapse. This would have limited the age to far less than 4.5 billion years.

However, a new experiment was able to detect the ‘missing’ flavours, which seems to provide conclusive evidence for oscillation. This means that neutrinos

must have a very tiny rest mass after all—experimental data must take precedence over theory. Therefore creationists should no longer invoke the missing

neutrino problem to deny that fusion is the primary source of energy for the sun. So it cannot be used as a young-age indicator—nor an old-age indicator for

that matter. See Newton, R., Missing neutrinos found! No longer an ‘age’ indicator, TJ16(3):123–125, 2002 (to be posted).

‘Einstein held unswervingly, against enormous peer pressure, to belief in a Creator.’ However, in the normal meaning of these terms, Einstein believed no

such thing. See also Physicists’ God-talk.

What arguments are doubtful, hence inadvisable to use?
Canopy theory. This is not a direct teaching of Scripture, so there is no place for dogmatism. Also, no suitable model has been developed that holds

sufficient water; but some creationists suggest a partial canopy may have been present. For AiG’s current opinion, see Noah’s Flood—Where did the water come

from? from the Answers Book.

‘There was no rain before the Flood.’ This is not a direct teaching of Scripture, so again there should be no dogmatism. Genesis 2:5–6 at face value teaches

only that there was no rain at the time Adam was created. But it doesn’t rule out rain at any later time before the Flood, as great pre-uniformitarian

commentators such as John Calvin pointed out. A related fallacy is that the rainbow covenant of Genesis 9:12–17 proves that there were no rainbows before the

Flood. As Calvin pointed out, God frequently invested existing things with new meanings, e.g. the bread and wine at the Lord’s Supper.

‘Natural selection as tautology.’ Natural selection is in one sense a tautology (i.e., Who are the fittest? Those who survive/leave the most offspring. Who

survive/leave the most offspring? The fittest.). But a lot of this is semantic word-play, and depends on how the matter is defined, and for what purpose the

definition is raised. There are many areas of life in which circularity and truth go hand in hand (e.g. What is electric charge? That quality of matter on

which an electric field acts. What is an electric field? A region in space that exerts a force on electric charge. But no one would claim that the theory of

electricity is thereby invalid and can’t explain how motors work.) — it is only that circularity cannot be used as independent proof of something. To harp on

the issue of tautology can become misleading, if the impression is given that something tautological therefore doesn’t happen. Of course the environment can

‘select’, just as human breeders select. Of course demonstrating this doesn’t mean that fish could turn into philosophers by this means — the real issue is

the nature of the variation, the information problem. Arguments about tautology distract attention from the real weakness of neo-Darwinism — the source of

the new information required. Given an appropriate source of variation (for example, an abundance of created genetic information with the capacity for

Mendelian recombination), replicating populations of organisms would be expected to be capable of some adaptation to a given environment, and this has been

demonstrated amply in practice.

Natural selection is also a useful explanatory tool in creationist modelling of post-Flood radiation with speciation [see Q&A: Natural Selection].

‘Evolution is just a theory.’ What people usually mean when they say this is ‘Evolution is not proven fact, so it should not be promoted dogmatically.’

Therefore people should say that. The problem with using the word ‘theory’ in this case is that scientists use it to mean a well-substantiated explanation of

data. This includes well-known ones such as Einstein’s Theory of Relativity and Newton’s Theory of Gravity, and lesser-known ones such as the Debye–Hückel

Theory of electrolyte solutions and the Deryagin–Landau/Verwey–Overbeek (DLVO) theory of the stability of lyophobic sols, etc. It would be better to say that

particles-to-people evolution is an unsubstantiated hypothesis or conjecture.

‘There is amazing modern scientific insight in the Bible.’ We should interpret the Bible as the author originally intended, and as the intended readership

would have understood it. Therefore we should be cautious in reading modern science into passages where the readers would not have seen it. This applies

especially to poetic books like Job and Psalms. For example, Job’s readers would not have understood Job 38:31 to be teaching anything about gravitational

potential energy of Orion and Pleiades. Rather, the original readers would have seen it as a poetic illustration of God’s might, i.e. that God, unlike Job,

could create the Pleiades in a tightly-knit cluster which is what it looks like; while God created Orion as a well spread out constellation, again something

well beyond Job’s ability. Similarly, Job 38:14 is not advanced scientific insight into the Earth’s rotation, because the earth is not being compared to the

turning seal but to the clay turning from one shape into another under the seal.

‘The speed of light has decreased over time’ (c decay). Although most of the evolutionary counter-arguments have been proven to be fallacious, there are

still a number of problems, many of which were raised by creationists, which we believe have not been satisfactorily answered. AiG currently prefers Dr

Russell Humphreys’ explanation for distant starlight, although neither AiG nor Dr Humphreys claims that his model is infallible. See How can we see distant

stars in a young Universe? from the Answers Book.

‘There are no transitional forms.’ Since there are candidates, even though they are highly dubious, it’s better to avoid possible comebacks by saying

instead: ‘While Darwin predicted that the fossil record would show numerous transitional fossils, even 140 years later, all we have are a handful of

disputable examples.’ See also Q&A: Fossils.

‘Gold chains have been found in coal.’ Several artefacts, including gold objects, have been documented as having been found within coal, but in each case the

coal is no longer associated with the artefact. The evidence is therefore strictly anecdotal (e.g. ‘This object was left behind in the fireplace after a lump

of coal was burned’). This does not have the same evidential value as having a specimen with the coal and the artefact still associated.

‘Plate tectonics is fallacious.’ AiG believes that Dr John Baumgardner’s work on Catastrophic Plate Tectonics provides a good explanation of continental

shifts and the Flood. See Q&A: Plate Tectonics. However, AiG recognises that some reputable creationist scientists disagree with plate tectonics.

‘Creationists believe in microevolution but not macroevolution.’ These terms, which focus on ‘small’ v. ‘large’ changes, distract from the key issue of

information. That is, particles-to-people evolution requires changes that increase genetic information, but all we observe is sorting and loss of

information. We have yet to see even a ‘micro’ increase in information, although such changes should be frequent if evolution were true. Conversely, we do

observe quite ‘macro’ changes that involve no new information, e.g. when a control gene is switched on or off.

‘The Gospel is in the stars.’ This is an interesting idea, but quite speculative, and many Biblical creationists doubt that it is taught in Scripture, so we

do not recommend


376 posted on 08/30/2005 4:10:51 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: WildTurkey
"If you are going to relate Jesus to mortal man, you have got a problem with that virgin birth thing."

That virgin was a daughter out of the linage of The Adam and Eve from the beginning and all through that line to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and Levi the two tribes, the reason they were established pointing to Christ puts evolution back in the "hot" primordial soup where it belongs.
377 posted on 08/30/2005 4:15:50 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: balch3
Maybe they weren't on the ark and that's why they went extinct.

If you believe literally in Genesis, as these people do, the dinosaurs must have been on the Ark. It says in Genesis that God commanded Noah to take two of every living land creature onto the ark.

378 posted on 08/30/2005 4:23:43 PM PDT by rkhampton
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To: Just mythoughts
That virgin was a daughter out of the linage of The Adam and Eve from the beginning and all through that line to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and Levi the two tribes, the reason they were established pointing to Christ puts evolution back in the "hot" primordial soup where it belongs.

How?

379 posted on 08/30/2005 4:28:06 PM PDT by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: SolarisRocks
For example, peat bogs produce chemicals that have preserved human bodies for thousands of years. It is likely that some similar rare process has preserved the soft tissue inside some T. rex bones."

HeHe, OK.

Just like the ice comets floating around stars for billions of years, or the thermo dynamos called moons that keep cranking heat and material into space for billions of years, or Shumaker-Levy impacting with life ending force into a planet in our solar system during our life times.

The Theory of Evolution is like attributing the production of a sandcastle to the ocean because you observed the water creating the mote.

Two men become stranded on a remote island. As they explore the island they come upon a sandcastle with towers, buttresses and a drawbridge. The design of the castle is amazingly intricate.

One man comments, "It is amazing what time and the ocean can create. The small rocks and seashells on the shore must have got caught in eddies and swirled around and chiseled out that castle. There were a few palm leaves floating by that scribed out the little lines that look like bricks. We are alone here and there is no need to consider anything else."

The other man looked at him incredulously and said, "No, obviously that castle was created by another intelligent being with a clear intent of design, we are not alone. The engineering required to create the castle is far to sophisticated to have originated by natural means."


And life is many levels of complexity beyond a sandcastle. Self-correcting, self-healing, propagating -- multiple inter-working systems like respiration, circulatory, musculature, waste management, fuel storage and retrieval, a veritable chemistry lab for dealing with unlocking energy from food, management of enzymes for unlocking the cell walls to allow passage of energy for use by the factories we call cells -- growth and the limits which keep replacement of dieing tissue from destroying the life form...

An attempt at denying God is making fools of our scientists. Science is entertaining and occasionally helpful. Science should be enjoyed, but not taken overly serious by people of common sense and conservative values.

380 posted on 08/30/2005 4:28:09 PM PDT by bondserv (Creation sings a song of praise, Declaring the wonders of Your ways †)
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