Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Beyond the Fish Wars (Intelligent Design is Bad Theology)
San Francisco Gate ^ | 8/25/2005 | Rev. Jim Burklo

Posted on 08/25/2005 3:17:05 PM PDT by curiosity

We've seen the little symbols on the backs of cars: The "Jesus fish" and the "Darwin fish." The Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. The Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish. It makes for entertainment while commuting, but this front of the culture wars won't be won or lost on the freeway.

The creationists realized that they were not getting enough traction in their bumper- sticker campaign against the theory of evolution. So biblical literalists have come up with a new strategy: leave the word "God" out of the public argument, and come up with one that sounds more scientific. It's called "intelligent design." President Bush has endorsed it as one of the theories of life's origins that should be taught in public schools.

But it isn't a theory at all. "Intelligent design" posits that the structure of life is so complex and delicate that it is unimaginable that it could have come into existence without having been designed by some intelligent force. Therefore such an intelligence must be responsible for it. But this is a conclusion that can be reached only by assuming that it is true in the first place -- a classic tautology, or example of circular reasoning, which has no place in science.

(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: allcrevoallthetime; anothercrevothread; christianity; crevolist; crevorepublic; darwinism; enoughalready; evolution; groan; intelligentdesign; makeitstop; notagain; religion
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-147 next last
To: xzins

Rev Burklo is a radical liberal...Am I supposed to take any of this guy's opinions seriously?

I don't automatically disagree with something someone says, especially if it's an opinion, just because I disagree with 99% of what they've said in the past.

IMO, this guy(?) has a good viewpoint on evolution from a religious perspective. Whatever his background and other political positions, he doesn't think evolution and religion are mutually exclusive. IMO, this is a much healthier and more useful position than the one taken by the creationist/ID crowd.

101 posted on 08/26/2005 5:08:36 AM PDT by ml1954
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: ml1954

See #73.

This guy is not qualified to talk about theology. He has no "theo" to talk about.

Let me repeat: he is a radical liberal.

Odds are greatly on the side of his hating the US in Iraq, opposing President Bush on EVERYTHING, agreeing with the murder of babies, wanting to constantly raise your taxes, etc., etc.

Anyplace else on FR, his ideas would be laughed off the board.

But put him in the crevo debates and all of a sudden he's a flippin' genius????

Gimmeabreak!


102 posted on 08/26/2005 5:18:53 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: razorbak; curiosity; Jorge; Alamo-Girl; thoughtomator; xzins; Ma3lst0rm; Moral Hazard; JamesP81
Jesus accepted and taught the account of Genesis as being literally true [such as Creation ex nihilo, Adam & Eve,

These stories are true. But they do not have to be "literally" true (although they might if it pleases God to be so). And Jesus did not teach that they were "literally true" as well as he did not teach that they are not. He was not involved with XIX/XX century controversies of US Protestantism. At least not at that time.

When you read the Gospels, put the scientific issues of modern biology aside. The Holy Scriptures are not the scientific handbook. They are something much more important.

103 posted on 08/26/2005 5:40:26 AM PDT by A. Pole (Heaven and earth shall pass away: but [His] words shall not pass away")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: curiosity; Alamo-Girl; marron
...but this front of the culture wars won't be won or lost on the freeway.

Hi, curiosity! Well, at least the writer admits that, in his view, this science issue is a "front of the culture war." The rest is pure polemics, specializing in the attribution of motives to people holding viewpoints with which he disagrees. Put it all in the mouth of a "progressive" Presbyterian minister, and voila!!! We are to gather that the Truth Has Been Told.

Kinda reminds me of what Code Pink is doing on Friday nights at the Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington, D.C. They say they are conducting "vigils." But it sure looks like hard left-wing political protest to me. I gather they feel -- as perhaps does the Rev. Burklo -- that to change the semantics is to change the reality.

This article is not ready for prime time, IMHO FWIW.

But thanks for posting it, curiosity!

104 posted on 08/26/2005 6:19:55 AM PDT by betty boop (Nature loves to hide. -- Heraclitus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: xzins

Let me repeat: he is a radical liberal.

Odds are greatly on the side of his hating the US in Iraq, opposing President Bush on EVERYTHING, agreeing with the murder of babies, wanting to constantly raise your taxes, etc., etc.

Anyplace else on FR, his ideas would be laughed off the board.

But put him in the crevo debates and all of a sudden he's a flippin' genius????

Okay. I understand how you arrive at your opinion of what someone says. It goes like this...."if he/she/it is politically in the other camp then I will agree with nothing they say." Fair enough. I just don't think that way.

105 posted on 08/26/2005 6:21:17 AM PDT by ml1954
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: ml1954

Oh come on now.

How much of John Kerry's writings on his military strategy for America did you read?


106 posted on 08/26/2005 6:25:24 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
Behe claims that it is impossible for "irreducibly complex" biological systems to have evolved. From this he concludes they must have been designed.

Not defending Behe, but it sounds like "impossible to have evolved" is a decent definition of "irreducibly complex". So far, that's a legitimate topic of discussion. The question becomes, "is there such a thing as 'irreducible complexity' in biology?" It may well be possible to answer that question one way or the other--for example, to identify a genetic structure with the property that no mutation is viable, or some such thing.

The part where Behe begs the question is when he demonstrates that something is mighty complex, and concludes that it's irreducibly complex. He's equivocating on the definition of "irreducibly" and taking advantage of the fact that one possible meaning of the word is "super-duper".

107 posted on 08/26/2005 6:30:38 AM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
I also have an "It's a Child, not a Choice" bumper sticker.

That shouldn't be a problem. It's the ones that challenge religion that cause problems. I remember on the news a while back a guy with a license plate saying "atheist" and his car was constantly vandalized.

108 posted on 08/26/2005 6:34:36 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Shalom Israel
Actually, Behe has a pretty clear definition of "irreducible complexity," and it doesn't beg the question.

He defines as "irreducibly complex" any biological system that requires substantially all of its parts to function. Take away any part any small subset of parts, and it ceases to function.

Behe makes the falsifiable claim that such a system cannot have evolved in a Darwinian fashion.

Unfortunately for Behe, his claim has been falsified on numerous occasions. That is, it has been demonstrated that certain irreducibly complex systems, according to his own definition, have evolved in a Darwinian fashion (eg. Mammalian blood clotting systems and the E. Coli lactose metabolic pathway).

109 posted on 08/26/2005 6:54:37 AM PDT by curiosity (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
He defines as "irreducibly complex" any biological system that requires substantially all of its parts to function. Take away any part any small subset of parts, and it ceases to function.

That's a reasonable definition. It still requires proof, of course. The biggest potential flaw in his argument is that an "incomplete" system might not serve its present purpose, but might serve an altogether different purpose. It's also possible that he's incorrect when he claims that the incomplete system "won't work".

110 posted on 08/26/2005 7:00:09 AM PDT by Shalom Israel (Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: JamesP81
Thank you for your agreement!
111 posted on 08/26/2005 7:00:23 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: Conservative til I die
My issue with evolutionists (not necessarily evolution itself) is that they say evolution is provable.

They don't understand science if they say that. Theories cannot be proven, only disproven.

112 posted on 08/26/2005 7:00:59 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: Moral Hazard
God is the author of life, so all life belongs to him. Therefore he has every right to take it or grant it as he sees fit.
113 posted on 08/26/2005 7:06:54 AM PDT by curiosity (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: curiosity; xzins; betty boop
Thank you for your posts!

Okay, okay, okay. I'll be careful to make sure I won't post theological articles by pseudo-Christians in the future. I see people around here are more interested in the authors personal beliefs than the content of their articles.

Whereas it is true that even a blind squirrel sometimes will find a nut - it is anathema to entertain any theological view from one who could equate the worship of rubber ducks with Christianity.

The articles of faith of his church puts all idealizations of deity on equal footing with Christ. This is idolatry with a modern twist: if you don't like the God Who is, then fabricate a "god" of your own choosing. What makes his articles of faith particularly vile to me is that they are being promulgated under the color of Christianity, i.e. a Presbyterian church.

No, I want nothing to do with this man beyond praying for his spiritual recovery from this delusion (Romans 1). I cannot even wish him Godspeed lest I might inadvertently commend his efforts. (2 John 1)

The other urls you provided at post 85 are helpful. The second was an article which had been published by Perspectives on Science & Christian Faith - a source I have found useful in the past.

114 posted on 08/26/2005 7:45:55 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; curiosity; betty boop
it is anathema to entertain any theological view from one who could equate the worship of rubber ducks with Christianity.

Precisely.

If someone is going to call ID "bad theology," then at least make him a theologian in the lineage of historic Christianity.

I wouldn't pick this guy's critique as worthy of consideration any more than I'd pick anything by the head of the UFO Cult.

But, I agree, AG, the links curiosity provided are much better.

Thank you for excellent comments.

115 posted on 08/26/2005 7:50:51 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 114 | View Replies]

To: xzins
Thank you oh so very much for your encouragements! Hugs!
116 posted on 08/26/2005 8:32:39 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | View Replies]

To: WildTurkey

since the theory of plate techtonics does state that mountains can be formed by plates thrust (i don't know the scientific term) then yes that could be possible, but there are some mountains where for miles and miles (up to 1000), strata are unbroken and "older layers exist ABOVE younger layers" I belive this disputes evolution and helps to prove that the flood could have created these or laid down sediment upon them.


117 posted on 08/26/2005 8:56:30 AM PDT by JSDude1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: curiosity
We've seen the little symbols on the backs of cars: The "Jesus fish" and the "Darwin fish." The Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish. The Darwin fish eating the Jesus fish.

Let's see. The Jesus fish doesn't necessarily promote creation, I haven't seen the Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish, and I've never seen one where the Darwin fish was eating the Jesus fish (copulating, yes, eating, no).

I have seen the one where a "Truth" fish is eating the Darwin fish, and always thought they need a third, bigger fish called "Reality" right behind it.

118 posted on 08/26/2005 9:09:14 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: curiosity

" They're not afraid of it. They just oppose teaching it as science because it's not science."

I favor the theory of abrupt appearence myself. Regardless of how one feels about "Intelligent design" it is indeed based upon science. Someone may disagree with the conclusions and the data but saying something is not scientific because one does not agree is hardly benefical. If Intelligent design is not scientific explain why it is not scientific? I would agree with that statement where Creationism is concerned but intelligent design is not the same thing as creationism.

"You're right. Darwin's theory was oversimplified. It's been expanded a lot in the last 100 years. For instance, we now know the mechanism for variation in inhertiable traits. We understand the deatils of how speciation occurs."

Thank you but I think Darwin's theory was too simplistic from the beginning not to mention chock full of assumptions that turned out to be not true such as his speculations about controlled breeding, the role of random mutations in natural selection and his theories concerning the finches on the Galapagos. Even today mainstream scientists continue to use the breeding of dogs as an example to buttress claims of how selection could work to produce new species something which is no more than a slight of hand trick. Even with all the variations of domesticated dogs we have yet to produce an example of an animal that is not in essence a dog and even if we were able to it would say little about the natural processes and how nature really operates.
What dog breeding shows is that within creatures there is a clear range of variation that is available what it does not show is that sufficient variation exists to produce a leap to another species that is so far removed that it is unrecognizable from the source species. Even in drosophila studies we have yet to see anything more than horrible deformities at the far edges of that variability.

"Why is this a problem exactly? There's nothing in the modern theory of evolution that says the ancestor species has to go extinct. In fact, quite often, the ancestor and descendant species coexist."

It is certainly a problem. Maybe I phrased it wrong. The problem is the clear lack of transitional species in the fossil record something that Darwin thought would be cleared up with time. Jay Gould acknowledged as much and many other in the field have expressed the same questions. Why does it appear that organisms make leaps when diversifying? Gould's solution was to introduce punctuated evolution where small populations were isolated resulting in speciation through a bottleneck type process. His idea is fine the problem is still that we need to show how this occurs on an individual basis allowing for complex morphological changes to an organism without killing or impairing the organism's ability to reproduce which isn't explained in the least by isolating a population because you still are faced with the truth that for every species there was an organism zero.

I've read studies where there has been attempts to solve these type of problems in bacteria, one in particular where the common bateria Ecoli was repeatedly zapped with increasing doses of gamma radiation, those left from each exposure were allowed to reproduce and then exposed again and from this the scientists involved attempted to calculate how long it would take Ecoli to evolve radiation resistence
evolve radiation resistance on par with Deinococcus radiodurans. The calculations suggested that Ecoli would never at least not on earth develop such resistance which isn't the point. What I thought it illustrated is the limits of any organism change. Even with drug resistent bacteria we are not seeing evolution where something new is being produced but rather adaption based upon existing varibility of the inherent genome of the bacteria and those bacteria that it happens to swap genetic information with. You may respond saying that it would take millions of years for those changes to take place, yes and in millions of years a mountain will wear away, in all it says little because millions of years are composed of individual years and given that most(all) organisms do not live for millions of years evolutionary response does not normally have the luxury of millions of years to produce the traits necessary to deal with radical change in the environment.



119 posted on 08/26/2005 10:15:19 AM PDT by Ma3lst0rm (A man once painted a flawless picture of his beloved wife though she was far from perfect.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole

I meant that God is independent of the universe, and before it. I also believe in His immanence and omnipresence. Rev. Burklo seems to treat God in this piece of writing as if He has no objective reality - He is all in our experience of Him. Subjective human experience can be very misleading.


120 posted on 08/26/2005 10:23:52 AM PDT by heartwood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140141-147 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson