Why Did the AFL-CIO Self-Destruct?

I've also had strict orders from my shop steward not to produce that extra pallett of product for the company when I finished my "quota" early. This for a company I owned Stock in, as well as worked for.

I have made this point to a few union supporters on FR and they denied that goes on. (I have several friends who will attest to what you report.) They insisted that time and motion studies had determined the "quotas". Regardless of how the work load was determined they still punish producers and good workers. I have often said that union work rules hurt our competiveness more than union salaries.

You are a musician too?

I've had some experience with unions, both reasonably good, and bad.

My normal employment is not a unionized profession. But I have been on projects where it was my job to direct work executed by union craftsmen, and sometimes to work alongside union craftsmen.

On the good side, they are generally well-trained. Their union training means that there is a certain body of knowledge that all are expected to have, and generally do have. With non-union craftsmen, since there is no standardized training, there is more "diversity" in their background, since they have found their way into the profession by a variety of means. Some non-union craftsmen are very good, of course, unions don't have a monopoly on talent, but there is something to say for a standardized apprenticeship program. That is one area where unions shine.

In areas where union contractors have to compete with non-union, they are almost as flexible and cooperative as non-union workers. The union companies here, for example, are very good to work with. Their labor costs are higher, but they maintain their competitive edge by being good.

A lot of the annoying union rules that might tie my hands in other areas don't apply here, I have worked with and alongside union contractors here without knowing they were union, and found them to be as helpful as any non-union contractor. In my work, while I am technically "white collar", it is not unusual for me to take tool in hand to make something work, and around here it is not an issue.

Years ago I worked in an area where we were required to use unions, and while the local union guys were, again, quite good to work with, a lot of guys from the eastern unions came in. They were almost impossible to work with, and made the project hell on earth. "Thuggish" described many of them to a "t".

So, my experience is that where unions have to compete, and have that kind of competitive reality check, they can be quite good to work with. Where they control, and they don't have to compete, they can be a nightmare.

Finally, I had an interesting experience a couple of years ago. The business cycle in my line of work hit an extended low after the war started, and I was offered union employment in a field that had nothing to do with my normal work. Having nothing better to do, I accepted it.

It was an interesting experience on several levels. But while the guys were convinced as union guys usually are that it was only thanks to the union that they had a decent life, I took away the opposite impression. Their belief that a job is a kind of property, that they were owed a living, that anyone who left the union to work in management had broken solidarity with them, created a very negative work atmosphere. They were generally miserable, and probably none of them knew why.

In general terms, I consider unions to be a kind of cancer. Companies who have unions usually deserve them, they have allowed an "us-versus-them" mentality to invade their workplace, and that opens the door to unionization. Once the unions are in, of course, the "us-versus-them" only gets worse unless you make a concerted effort to turn it around. Since most companies don't understand what they did to bring unions on themselves, they will never turn it around, they will just live with a permanently adversarial work environment and consider it normal. Which, for them, it is.

Unions and management of unionized industries can't imagine that its possible to have a non-adversarial workplace. For them, it isn't.

Excellent link.. Thanks.

WASHINGTON -- A small and elite group, many of them connected to Washington's radical think tank, the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS), has decided they will create a new international organization for the 21st century. It will be a massive labor alliance to rival the AFL.

Not only IPS is involved with the new concept. There also are Andrew Stern, 54, president of the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) and his ultra-wealthy allies, George Soros and philanthropist Eli Broad.

And there are others. Jimmy Hoffa of the Teamsters; Steve Rosenthal of America Coming Together; Drummond Pike, president and CEO of the Tides Foundation; and a raftful of lefty rebels defecting from the AFL.

The list is not complete without Wade Rathke, the founder of the leftist Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN). Wade also is chief organizer of SEIU's Local 100 and the founder and director of the Organizers' Forum, a major force on the Left.

The United States' comparative and small advantages do not generally lie in those areas where unions are strongest, as people like Stern, Rathke and Soros know. Already, their concepts for the future of large global unions and meetings with more than a dozen European, Australian and Chinese labor unions have begun to globalize unions on an industry-by-industry basis.

The SEIU, with more than 1.8 million members, is the fastest-growing labor union in the country. The SEIU has a high percentage of immigrant and female workers on its paid-up rolls -- from Central and South America, from Eastern Europe and from Asia. This feature is shared with other supporters of CTW, whose memberships are also nonwhite, aggressive and under 35.

Unions were founded as Communists organizations to exploit class warfare in this country by championing the "workers". This is the tactic they use in all countries. If there is no unrest they create it. The goal is to defeat "capitalism", free enterprise to the rest of us, and eliminate our republic form of government.

Nothing has changed. This so called split is just to energize more activism and recruitment activity while expanding the Communist agenda worldwide. Free enterprise is still doing too well for them.

Thank you so much for all of your insight on this subject, marron!!!

It is obvious you are a good American and you are probably an excellent worker who contributes a lot to our productivity and competitiveness. However, you, like most union members, do not properly appreciate the effectiveness of free enterprise in creating high paying jobs and the negative impact on the market caused by unions and the politicians they supports. (I am speaking of union leadership, not the membership.)

Organized labor recognizes that if America is to survive, we cannot export jobs, we cannot work for less, and we have to have medical insurance and pensions.

If so, your leadership is working in the opposite direction of its members. They are supporting politicians who favor tax laws which penalize free enterprise and the very companies who hire union workers. They favor unnecessary environmental and safety rules which raise costs without protecting the environment nor improving safety, making it more difficult for the companies you work for to stay in business and provide what you want. Many environmental and safety regulations are sensible and necessary but many are not. Those which are not add an unnecessary burden and dampen innovation and change.

To consider medical care and pensions to be a right rather than a bonus given to you by the company is socialistic and anti-business.

There are those who think Union workers make too much. But the flip side of the coin says lawyers and doctors and pro athletes and CEO's and stockbrokers make too much also.

The difference is that union workers make their's through coercion by a labor monopoly while the others make their's on the open market. No one has to patronized the others but they have no choice with unions. Most union workers would make more if they individually marketed their skills rather than riding on the coattails of extortion.

As Americans we all have to get along and patronize our companies and businesses and pass the money around. Someone will always be overpaid and someone will always be underpaid. But the people who earn enough to own a house and a car, send a son to college, seek medical care without the hospital owning the house are the backbone of America.

I agree and I use your own words to make my point.

Being pro labor and pro worker is a good thing.

As long as they are the same but they are not. Workers are you and your colleagues. Labor is the agglomeration of organizations who are working against your success while convincing you that some outside force, evil big business and management, are you enemies. That is no different than any tyrannical government in the world. All blame the USA for the problems they created for their own people in order to point the blame away from themselves.

As Americans, United We Stand, divided we fall. Same with Union workers. If we let others dictate how much money they think we should make we will never prosper. If we do good work and have a good work ethic we should be justly rewarded the same as if we do shoddy work be reprimanded.

Others always dictate how much you make. It is called the free market. Unions and the politicians they support distort the free market and prevent it from working as it should.

Also, when have you ever seen a worker reprimanded for shoddy work. There are many stories of shoddy work being done to get back at mangement by hurting the customer, poor slobs like you and me. I have personally experienced that on several occassions.

The free market decides value, not politicians.

See, we agree, or rather you agree with me but not yourself.

These free trade agreements like CAFTA and the WTO and NAFTA stifle competition and set arbitrary limits on wages and productivity.

Quite the contrary, they increase competition. That is why unions don't like them. It is the competition which sets limits on prices, and therefore wages, but it also encourages increased productivity. The union MO is decreased productivity, through work rules that limit how much a worker con produce, and increased wages and it has been for years.

High oil prices are hurting us all.

Not much we can do about that at the moment but the Democrats, who get all the union money and support, are fighting every meaningful thing we try to do to change it. They insist on wind and solar power, which can never solve the problem and they know it, and alternative fuels which only benefit the rich agricultural corporations like ADM (I thought they hated big business), while preventing us from drilling in the vast waste land in Alaska they call pristine wilderness.

The middle class cost of living wage increases in America is not keeping pace with inflation. And since most Union workers are middle class Americans we are neither robbing the bank or collecting welfare. But to hear some people scream that Union workers are making too much money is bulls*hit. It seems to be vogue to accuse workers of breaking the bank. Forget Enron and Global Crossing and Tyco and unscrupulous accounting fraud and how much that costs America.

If wages aren't keeping up with inflation the workers will buy less, the economy will cool, and inflation will go down. Artificially pegging things to inflation, except for the elderly on fixed income, only feeds inflation. It is not union wages that are the problem as much as union work rules, and the costs of healthcare and pensions, which burden business. Add to that the taxes and regulations of the party unions support, as well as the tremendous costs and lost opportunities by another supporter of the left, the trial lawyers, and you get a clearer picture of the problem.

The complaint about CEOs and such taking advantage of their positions is just class warfare. At least they are getting caught and punished while your bosses skate.

I repeat, I don't question anything about you as a person. I just think you have been exposed too much to the union story and not enough to the story of the free enterprise.

I worked non union for 18 years and could barely afford rent...

Since joining the IBEW in 96 I've bought two houses, three cars , a 38'travel trailer and a boat, provide for a family of 5, and my wife no longer has to work...

I'm am by no means "wealthy"...but I am comfortable and secure...with the ablity to provide a reletively steady income for my family..

I've put more money back into the economy than three non union workers....

I've recieved training and education un paralleled in all but the but the best engineering colleges..I've wired malls, prisons, and factories...

I've built a 5000 volt 3000 amp service and power distibution system with my own two hands...

The extra few bucks an hour makes a hell of a difference for my family...and the safety and occupational training is night and day...

Are all unions equal?...hell no...and I pointed that out allready...the teachers union(just to name one) sucks....half of them show their union support by driving vehicles produced by foriegn owned companies...

It's "all about the children" until contract time floats around....then it's unreasonble salery demands and threats of strikes...*spits*

But if you think for a second that one uneducated and unskilled worker will get anymore out of a non union contractor, than a highly trained and educated worker will get through a collective barganing agreement, in an industry with a high injury and morality rate..then your a better spinner than bagdad bob...

I've lived your senario....I know different...

Go to collage for 4 years...get an electrical degree...hunt for a non union job...good luck getting more than 12 to 15 bucks and hour on a good day....and good luck having any kind of security or future or benifits....about the time you will be expecting a promotion or raise...you'll have a new boss....the old bosses snot nosed, know nothing, greedy kid...

If you live that long...after sticking your untrained hands in a live 5000 volt transformer....

but please....before you do....sign me up as your next of kin.

I could still use the money...

*evil closet conservative grin*

The next time your power is out...it's raining or snowing or freezing rain....you remember that guy on the pole fixing your power ,in mortal danger, has a family too...he's worth every penny he makes.....and then some...

Respectfully,

Crim

Dear marron, I think “thugs” is the magic word here. It seems to me that, in recent times, “thugs” have managed to penetrate practically every human institution that, in former times, were understood as having been constituted by God and man for the purpose of protecting and nurturing human life, individual, social, and natural. This would include units of political authority at all levels; religious institutions of every description; the broadcast media, which lately has taken upon itself the thankless task of daily spinning for us what our reality actually “is” (or ought to be?) on a 24/7/365 real-time basis; and the schools of human learning, from pre-kindergarten through post-graduate studies.

So, who are these “thugs?”

Whoever they are, it seems they do not sympathize with the idea of “classical” unionized labors’ concerns about workplace safety, or the provision of apprentice programs that propagate valuable, vital human technical knowledge and skill from one generation to the next.

When I say “classical,” I mean “pre-Marxian.” Marxists always want you to think in terms of their own strict doctrine regarding how to make major, that is “progressive,” improvements in “reality.”

But it seems to me, most human beings want to think about how they’re actually getting along in life, and doctrine be damned (a pox on all their houses!!!)….

People do not live in/as abstractions: They actually suffer and bleed from time to time, and the people they love do this, too. This was the “inconvenience” that Marx tried to expunge from his theory; which paradoxically would later prove to be the only way his theory could be realized. Marx may have been totally crazy; but it seems he was prescient. That doesn’t necessarily mean that his analysis was correct, only that a whole lot of people would “buy into it” by some future time. That is, sooner or later one could convene a public poll that would decide that Marxian analysis is “correct.”

And that is the question before us: Was Marx “right?”

Anyhoot, getting back to “thugs.” I think they are just so many termites, or cockroaches, scurrying blindly around in the dark, doing as much damage as possible to whatever structures supporting the “normal” or expected, reliable ways of doing things to which human beings have become accustomed over their millennial history, that are within their reach. Getting a tad theological here, they are like a legion of little, screaming, pitiable minor devils whose mission in life/death is to eat out the very heart of meaning in Life – ultimately to leave man high and dry, without support, of the only validating basis he has of his own existence as a human being.

The easiest way to spot a thug, a termite, a cockroach, is to “shine the light” on them. Then sit back and notice: Inevitably, invariably, they scurry away into darkness.

Another helpful hint might be this: These “thugs” ALL learned their “manners” from Saul Alinsky – Hillary!’s great guru in life, post-Wellesley daze….

Jeepers, dear marron – it is time to “adjust my meds,” or what? LOL!!!

Thank you so very much for writing, dear marron – and for listening to my little screed here…. Thank you! Must say goodnight for now, and God bless!

Getting a tad theological here, they are like a legion of little, screaming, pitiable minor devils whose mission in life/death is to eat out the very heart of meaning in Life – ultimately to leave man high and dry, without support, of the only validating basis he has of his own existence as a human being.

The easiest way to spot a thug, a termite, a cockroach, is to “shine the light” on them. Then sit back and notice: Inevitably, invariably, they scurry away into darkness.

Theological indeed - and very, very wise insights! Thank you so much for the excellent post.

Why Did the AFL-CIO Self-Destruct?

In a word: greed.

The very notion that a service or labor provider can set his own worth, kind of distorts the whole notion of "free exchange" and "private enterprise".

Doesn't it?

I'm a County Public works employee that's a member of SEIU which was affiliated with AFL-CIO. The guys I work with who are all truck driving, gun owning, church going conservatives are fed up with our union giving money to anti gun, pro tax increase, pro illegal immigrant, pro homosexual agenda democrat politicians.

As road and bridge construction workers we realize that under democratic regimes the likelihood of us actually building roads and fixing bridges is nil. Especially in Oregon the faggoty pedophile controlled democrats believe in increased density, urban growth boundaries, zero constuction, traffic "calming", illegal diversion of gas tax revenues, increased bike lanes, and astronomically expensive ineffective light rail projects.

We are also fed up that come contract time, we are sold down the river because the Union won't pay for a professional contract negotiator and lets the elected local union busybodies negotiate with the professional paid negotiator from the management's side. The reason why the Union won't pay is because they have no money left after all the democratic mafiosi get to "dip their beaks".

Is that clear enough?

Pretty much lurking these days, but have to agree with most of your comments.

There are are many examples these days of companies in trouble because they've been held over a barrel by unions wanting "their share". Unions have probably served their purpose in the past, but somehow I don't think they are generally necessary these days. JMHO

The one thing that always seems ridiculous to me is asking union members to strike, thereby giving up their pay checks, oh, but, by the way, be sure and have those union dues in on time.

We agree on more things than you think. I am totally aware of what the union leadership is doing. They are elected officials just like our politicians and they act just like the politicians when elected to office. They listen to their advisors rather than the membership.
I get the Bush bashing spieel at every union meeting. In some cases, Bush deserves to be bashed. In other cases the bashing is just an echo of the leftists who are impotent as leaders but given a tv camera ans microphone like to belittle people because it takes attention away from their inability to accomplish anything except re-election fundraising. Enough said on that.

We exist in a free market society. there is intense competition in almost every construction trade. But there is little competition in the big 3 automakers or the big 3 airlines or the big 3 steel mills. I have no disagreement that government regulation has had a lot to do with the restriction of competition. But entering into so called free trade agreements stifle productivity because of tariffs and price caps on exports and imports. Agriculture is one of the most manipulated industrys in America, if not the most. The export business and regulation of farm prices by the Chicago board of trade is centralized socialism. Unions have little to do with that, but politicians do.

And it takes many Republicans as well as many Democrats to enable those rules and regulations that restrict competition. The ones you mention like safety and environmental laws.

Being the wealthiest nation in the world I find it an abomination that we do not have equal access to health care for all. Good health is directly tied to earning potential, productivity, and our standard of living as a nation. My health care insurance comes directly off of my base wage. If my base wage was to be cut in half health insurance would probably be the first thing to be dropped. There is absolutely nothing socialistic about participating in a health care plan. The socialistic part of health care is the non working, non contributing people who get medicaid and ride on the coat tails of the taxes I pay. So I am not only paying for my own health care, but the health care of the non productive. The social welfare system in America has been enabled by Republicans as well as Democrats. So Unions have not been the proponent of giving free health care by merely supporting certain candidates.

Productivity is a big issue we agree on. I do construction work as a bricklayer and blocklayer. We have to be productive and meet daily quotas to have a job. I don't know about factory work but have heard the storys about people only turning out their quota when they have the ability to turn out more work and be more productive. I suppose in many cases that has happened. But as with any industry whether it be clerical work or factory work, union or non union, there is a lot of sandbagging.
I hear that the internet access in offices is the biggest cause of loss of productivity. Glad most offices are non union or our membership would get the generalized blame for that as well.

I guess the bottom line of what I am saying is that Unions have traditionally supported pro labor candidates, while overlooking the social issues that some of those candidates have sponsored. I agree with you there. But I also remind you that Republicans have been just as complicit as enablers of the social welfare, environmental and job safety regulations as the candidates the Unions have backed. There are also a lot of pro-labor politicians who are Republican. That was the cause of the big riff and divide in the AFL-CIO that created this topic. We cannot give blanket support to a party that cannot win because that does nothing to help workers standard of living.
Bad candidates like kerry were a profound waste of money as far as labor is concerned. I voted for Bush btw.

I am not a stranger to free enterprise either. I have operated several businesses and find the struggle of small business to be at times, overwhelming in terms of unproductive reporting of taxes, government reports etc. The cost of workers comp is through the roof. Unemployment taxes are an additional burden. Finding good help that shows up for work sobor is difficult.
Our Union local has instituted a mandantory substance abuse testing program. Working on large projects is dangerous enough without having stoned people on the premisis. I challenge our non union competition to implement the same policy and then we see an accurate competitive picture to compare.
Free market and competition can only be real when the playing field is equal. Things the public does not see when shopping for qualified, trained professionals are 4 year apprenticeship training programs, a drug tested workforce, jobsite dress codes, safety meetings etc.
I think as a whole most all workers take pride in their work. A lot of the union bashers are jealous because they make 15 bucks an hour instead of 25. They don't realize that most union worker households are middle class, with husband and wife both working to make ends meet. We have built America and I know the dream will disappear if we continue to mismanage our national economy and ship our good jobs across our border while allowing unfettered access to a 3rd world migration. We have a lot bigger problems facing us than just making a living.

Organized labor has been an institution in America for over 100 years. Those "thugs" you speak about (from another post) are actually people who want to un-do every institution and tradition that made America great or built America.
True there are some violent times in Union history and a lot of passed on generation to generation hostility towards unions. But in the same time many skills and crafts have been passed down from father to son to grandson. That concept is tradition. Namely family tradition and work ethic. And respect.
Those thugs you speak of are those who seek to destroy tradition by whatever means possible. They can realize their goals by utilizing one word. "DIVISION".
There is invincible truth in the phrase "United We Stand, Divided We Fall". Those who seek to destroy tradition use "division" as their tool.
They want to destroy family units, churches, unions, boy scouts, clubs etc. They want to re-write history to sugar coat some events and erase others. They have no respect for the teachings and traditions of the key institutions that made America great.
The unions are not the enemy here. It is those who seek to destroy tradition. Remembering the past prepares us for the future.

"Does your "voluntary association" force people to join "voluntarily" to work at a company under the thumb of the "voluntary association"? Or can free people work alongside of, and compete with, members of your "voluntary association" without intimidation?" you said

Prove to me that the person you want to work next to me has been through a 4 year apprenticeship program and been drug tested pre employment and then randomly drug tested. After that and I might consider voluntary association.
Does he have a scaffold safety card? Know CPR? Know what lockout/tagout means?
You obviously live in a right to work state that has no pre-existing requirements on skilled labor other than they be a body on the wall and work cheap. The training means nothing. An investment in training is just an expense since the person probably won't show up for work anyhow and you know theres another cheap body there to exploit.
Some people dedicate their lives to a career, but an employer with your attitude will never achieve full potential because you place no value on them except to show up for work and he worker knows it. Keep em dumb so they don't discover they can make more money with a union card and have a little pension and some medical insurance. Feed them with the goon and thug story because you know it intimidates self respecting people even though you know the quality of work is outstanding to that piece of work you call a finished product.
I think it would be demoralizing for a worker to know he was making $5.00 an hour less than someone working next to him doing the same job. Is is going to question the dedication of his employer employee relationship? You bet!
There is nothing more satisfying than to see someone come from a job down the street and sign up with the Union. Because he realizes there is more to a job than just a check. His family deserves more than the pittance you pay and he is man enough to take charge of his future.
I know because I was there myself once. And I know the standard of living in my family improved considerably with the medical insurance and more income so I could buy a new truck and quit paying rent in favor of buying a home.
Being able to call myself middle class where I made too much money to qualify my kids for reduced price school lunches and all the other subsidys that poorly paid non- union workers have to rely on is a great source of pride.

I pay a lot of taxes now so I help subsidize your poorly paid workers. Without those subsidys my fellow union thugs pay, your workers would have to move on because they couldn't get the welfare benefits that subsidize low paid people. You should be ashamed of yourself taking advantage of taxpayers so you can pad your wallet!

Unions broke up because there's not enough dues money to pay all the corruption and bribes to the top leadership.

Plus kick in millions for Democrats who never get elected....hahahahahaha

Well except form Illinois and Jessie Jackson jr., Dickhead TurdBin and Mayor Daley.

Yep partner your correct.

Great post, hit the nail on the proverbial head.

A major factor = JOHN SWEENEY, one of the leading 'Hate the United States' Socialists!

"What I’m mainly interested in here is: What do you, dear reader, think about these potentially momentous developments?"

The short story is that Big Labor screwed the pooch.

Big Labor has been giving all of its political contributions to Democrats. Those Democrats fail to share the core values of union members (e.g. on gun control, abortion, gay marriage, public religious displays, fighting terrorism, urban sprawl, new jobs from drilling for oil in Alaska, national missile defense, etc.).

Compounding that problem has been that Democrats have lost all national power. Republicans now control the House, Senate, Presidency, most state governorships, most state legislatures, and even have most registered voters.

...And while Big Labor has been spending every last union due dime on Democratic Party politics, union membership has been in a steady decline.

But wait, there's more. Big name Democrats such as Senator Kerry voted *for* NAFTA and were rewarded with union endorsements and union dues for campaign contributions. Ditto for VP Gore in 2000...whose White House not only signed NAFTA but who also went to Japan and signed the Kyoto global warming nonsense that would have wiped out 5% of all U.S. jobs (had President Bush and the U.S. Senate not killed it).

So Big Labor is backing candidates who are supporting NAFTA and Kyoto...treaties that are designed to break the working man.

And it doesn't stop there. Big Labor backs major homosexual candidates such as corrupt New Jersey Govenor McGreevy, even sending union "volunteers" to aid his fund raising and get out the vote efforts. Big Labor tells its membership to *support* the gay pride parades and the anti-job "environmental" parades (e.g. Earth Day), as well as to support anti-sprawl inner city local candidates. Well, what are carpenters supposed to think when you tell them to go support inner city candidates who are advocating shutting down new home construction?!

...And you can be pro-gay all day long, but backing the expansion of healthcare coverage to gay "couples" is about to wreck General Motors and Ford. Even if you are pro-gay, how "pro-gay" is it to kill off all union healthcare for everyone?? Because that's precisely what is going to happen when GM and Ford go bankrupt. No more jobs, gay or straight, means no more healthcare for *either* "partner."

So is anyone really surprised (besides the corrupt old news media, anyway) that we're seeing private sector unions flee from the hyper-liberal public sector union leadership?!

Should anyone truly be stunned to see a few unions calculate that rather than piss away union dues on out-of-power Democrats, that perhaps there are *other* ways to spend their dwindling resources (e.g. on organizing Wal-Mart or Fed-Ex)?!

How suicidal would unions have to be to continue more of the same?!

"His family deserves more than the pittance you pay and he is man enough to take charge of his future."

If he is man enough to take charge in his future, why would he need a union?

Does not a union act on his behalf, the very antithesis of what you claim?

I am happy for you and for your family. I think you may give the union too much credit and yourself too little.

I worked non union for 18 years and could barely afford rent...

Since joining the IBEW in 96 I've bought two houses, three cars , a 38'travel trailer and a boat, provide for a family of 5, and my wife no longer has to work...

The extra few bucks an hour makes a hell of a difference for my family...

Some where along the way you also became a financial genius. A few bucks an hour usually doesn't make such a dramatic difference.

I've received training and education unparalleled in all but the but the best engineering colleges..I've wired malls, prisons, and factories...

I've built a 5000 volt 3000 amp service and power distribution system with my own two hands...

I am confident with those skills you could make more owning your own company or working for a nonunion contractor. However, you would probably work much harder but the personal satisfaction would probably more than make up for that.

But if you think for a second that one uneducated and unskilled worker will get anymore out of a non union contractor, than a highly trained and educated worker will get through a collective bargaining agreement, in an industry with a high injury and morality rate..then your a better spinner than bagdad bob...

You have hit the nail on the head while trying to make the opposite point. Usually it is the uneducated, unskilled worker who is protected by the union while the highly trained and educated worker is in the free market with his own business or helping run someone else's. Why should the union establish someone's value rather than their skills and work ethic?

I've lived your scenario....I know different...

Go to collage for 4 years...get an electrical degree...hunt for a non union job...good luck getting more than 12 to 15 bucks and hour on a good day....and good luck having any kind of security or future or benefits....about the time you will be expecting a promotion or raise...you'll have a new boss....the old bosses snot nosed, know nothing, greedy kid...

I have lived it too, and I agree with you. In addition there are a lot of companies that dump their older, more experienced and valuable workers because their age is increasing the cost of their group insurance and pension programs. That is stupid but it is also common.

Starting over is not easy once you get older and the better your resume the harder it is to get hired, usually because you are being interviewed by some much younger person who sees you as a threat to their own job. If one company let you go because of the impact you age has on the benefit programs another company will look at you the same way and not hire you.

So, what is your choice? Find a smaller company where you report directly to the boss who is only interested in the bottom line or work as an independent contractor on the same basis. You may have to flip burgers or something similar for awhile, too, but we usually get what we are worth. That is, unless we work for a union and get what the union can bully a company into paying us.

If you live that long...after sticking your untrained hands in a live 5000 volt transformer....

Do you truly think being in a union makes you smart? Some would say the opposite.

On more than one occasion I have had to have expensive crews, worth several hundred dollars an hour, sit around and wait for a union electrician to come from some unknown mysterious place where no one could find him, to simply push a button to turn a machine off only to disappear again and repeat the process when the machine had to be turned back on. I hate to think of all the time and training it took to learn that skill. When you are doing maintenance work on a system and need to turn it on and off frequently a three hour job can easily become a three day job. Who pays for that? Eventually you and I do. Did we get equal value for our money? Absolutely not. I could use up several threads citing similar stories.

The next time your power is out...it's raining or snowing or freezing rain....you remember that guy on the pole fixing your power ,in mortal danger, has a family too...he's worth every penny he makes.....and then some...

Those people are greatly admired and appreciated. The next time your highly skilled self gets into an automobile accident on the way to your union-protected job, while you are laying in the emergency room give thanks that doctors aren't unionized.

I know you are seeing things from your perspective as I am seeing things from mine. The benefit to both of us is to consider other sides. To sum up what I am saying, unions impose an artificial cost and unnecessary burden on the whole system. They give slackers a free ride and hold back the real doers so the doers don't make the slackers so evident. Union work rules and benefit demands cost the economy much more than union wages. Union workers don't realize the benefits of the increased wages as much as non union workers because of dues, attending meetings, being used as slave labor to do "volunteer" work for politicians, and time lost due to strikes. However, all those costs ar imposed on the economy and, therefore, the rest of us because there is no increased productivity to make up for it. Union workers don't benefit as much as they think they do but they costs all of us more money, including themselves.