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A Fair Question about Fair Tax
August 3, 2005 | RobFromGa

Posted on 08/03/2005 4:51:43 PM PDT by RobFromGa

A simple question...

So, under the FairTaxI get to keep my whole paycheck, prices for everything I will buy will stay the same even with the taxes included, and I get a prebate check from the govt every month. And businesses pay no taxes.

Where is the extra money coming from...

What is wrong with this reasoning below?

1. Right now the government collects $X in the form of all taxes.

2. All taxes are really paid for by consumers in the end result, either directly, or in the cost of their purchases which allow businesses to collect money in order to pay taxes. Companies do not really pay taxes they jsut collect them and pass them on.

3. The FairTax will collect the same $X per year in the form of taxes but using a different method.

4. Under the FairTax, the price paid for goods will not rise because getting rid of all the taxes built into goods will cause the prices to drop, then the FairTax will add onto the new lower price, resulting in the same price paid by consumers.

5. So, for a given taxpayer, shopping (consumption) will be revenue neutral. Ie. Prices are the same as before.

6. And each given taxpayer will get a "prebate" check every month that they are not getting now.

7. And each taxpayer will pay no taxes on capital gains, or on savings.

8. And, each taxpayer will no longer pay any taxes on income, or payroll taxes.

9. And, there will be no Fair Taxes on any purchases made for a business.

Are these all true so far?

Again, I get to keep my whole paycheck, prices for everything I will buy will stay the same even with the taxes included, and I get a prebate check from the govt every month.

Where is the extra money coming from???


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: doubledippers; fairtax; irs; scientology; smokeandmirrors; snakeoil; taxfraud; taxreform
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To: RobFromGa

Because the tax is now collected from the sales tax.


341 posted on 08/04/2005 12:15:44 PM PDT by rwrcpa1 (April 15. Let's make it just another day.)
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To: rwrcpa1
No, because the general public hasn't already made up its mind like you did before you even started this post.

Are you afraid of criticism?

From The FairTax Book (p2)
Let's agree up front that this is a book about honesty...

From The FairTax Book (p3)
Before you embrace it enthusiastically-- and we believe you will-- we encourage you to read it critically... and ponder how together we can make the idea even better.

I have NOT made up my mind, are you saying that anyone who questions the plan is an enemy plant? This is serious business and needs to be examined from all relevant angles.

Stop being so snide, it doesn't help your cause.

342 posted on 08/04/2005 12:16:36 PM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline is on August recess...)
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To: GadareneDemoniac

Sounds as though you haven't read any of the many economic studies on the FairTax nor the letter that 75 economists sent to the President and Congres endorsing it as beneficial.

Please do that and then return with any questions you might have.


343 posted on 08/04/2005 12:17:36 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: xzins

That is not the bill as written. They won't have support from us Fair Taxers for that. I hated the idea of a NRST until I learned that the Fair Tax would repeal all the other taxes. I wouldn't support it otherwise.


344 posted on 08/04/2005 12:19:06 PM PDT by rwrcpa1 (April 15. Let's make it just another day.)
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To: KenmcG414

Compliance under the sales tax will actually be greater than under the income tax. Less points of collection, and not paying the tax involves collusion between two parties, not just one.


345 posted on 08/04/2005 12:21:21 PM PDT by rwrcpa1 (April 15. Let's make it just another day.)
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To: RobFromGa
If this is the case, then this could be a huge additional expense on businesses.

Why an additional expense? Do a simple example. Let's say that you pay $1000/year in hotel expenses, and the IRS allows you to deduct $1000 from gross revenues to cover that expense. At say a 30% tax rate, that $1000 deduction saves you $300 in taxes. Let's assume it were your company's only deduction on revenue of $11,000 so you would be taxed 30% on profits of $10,000 or $3000.

Under the Fair Tax, you pay $230 Federal sales tax for your hotel room vs. $3000 under the current income tax system.

The whole deduction shell game of the current system is corrupt and cons people into thinking they are saving something. It's like the home mortgage interest rate scam. Trust me. I would much rather pay and extra grand in taxes than an extra $3000 in mortgage interest and if anyone tells you to take out a big mortgage to "save on your taxes", run away fast.

346 posted on 08/04/2005 12:21:46 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: rwrcpa1
It took me about one hour of research after I heard about the fair tax to decide it was a good idea

You are either much smarter, much more trusting, or much sloppier than most. I can't tell which.

347 posted on 08/04/2005 12:22:08 PM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline is on August recess...)
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To: rwrcpa1
That part of the thread started out with how does a seller determine whether a sale is to a business (and untaxed) or a retail sale to a person (and taxed). In #320 I finally found and cited the "tax exempt card" which allows a business to purchase from a retailer and get the sale tax free. It looks like even a wholesaler would need to keep track of the buyer's certificate number.
348 posted on 08/04/2005 12:24:23 PM PDT by KarlInOhio (Bork should have had Kennedy's USSC seat and Kelo v. New London would have gone the other way.)
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To: rwrcpa1

From a completely selfish point of view, I'm sold. Since direct patient contributions account for ~10-15% of my businesses income, my tax liability would be much less than what I am paying now (if you include the taxes that would be embedded into the goods that I purchased).


349 posted on 08/04/2005 12:25:57 PM PDT by junaid
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To: Ditto

I don't want to discuss this anymore, I am going with the assumption that there will be no taxes withheld on these business expenses. These business expenses, esp. for sales and marketing side of businesses is 99% of our cost structure. It is significant.


350 posted on 08/04/2005 12:28:41 PM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline is on August recess...)
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To: RobFromGa

I have to say it took me one quickie explanation to understand it. But the concept of imbedded taxes was one I was already aware of. Once I understood it I looked for reasons why it didn't work. I couldn't find any right off the bat. I also spent many years of listening to pros and cons which solidified my support even more.


351 posted on 08/04/2005 12:31:00 PM PDT by groanup (shred for Ian)
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To: CMAC51

You're certainly right - that's the border-adjustable ability of the FairTax and it is perfectly within he WTO (and other) regulations we operate under.

And yet, many of he union members are not aware of this and/or are not being informed. It would be a huge boost to the US economy. Tell all the union members you know.

It also makes imported goods taxed at retail (which works to the benefit of US goods overall).


352 posted on 08/04/2005 12:38:57 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: RobFromGa
These business expenses, esp. for sales and marketing side of businesses is 99% of our cost structure. It is significant.

Wow! What about salary, rents and utilities?

353 posted on 08/04/2005 12:42:42 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: KarlInOhio

I rather doubt it unless the wholesaler is actually a wholesaler and retailer both - in which case he probably WOULD need to do so for his own possible protection, but keep in mind that he would be making monthly simple reports and payments to the state sales tax agency and they might want to spot check some of the tax-free sales to satisy themselves. Many states do so presently - that's not new.


354 posted on 08/04/2005 12:43:48 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: Ditto

utilities are business expenses, we have home offices so no rent, yes we have our own salaries. I don't make a product I sell a product that others make and get a commission when I sell something. So I have no real cost of goods sold.


355 posted on 08/04/2005 12:48:32 PM PDT by RobFromGa (This tagline is on August recess...)
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To: Ditto

Excellent points, Ditto, and the ER portion of payroll taxes is also just an artifice dreamed up years ago to make payroll taxes seem lower than they really are. If the employee actually received this money, and paid payroll taxes as the current regs require (the EE portion must be matched by the ER portion), you'd find that payroll taxes would amount to more than the 15.3% that many think they are.

Because of the ER portion artifice, they're actually something like 18% or so. Keeps the people happy to think they're "lower" and the government happy, it seems, to fool people in this manner.


356 posted on 08/04/2005 12:48:55 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: RobFromGa

Depending on the product - or mainly who you sell it to - you may not have to collect the FairTax (which is too bad since you get well paid for doing it and the report is something a two line thing). Check the bill for details - about sec. 510 or so AIR.


357 posted on 08/04/2005 12:52:06 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: upchuck
I meant that as an answer that could have been given in support of
the Fair Tax. The way it is now he gets taxed when he dies. With the
Fair Tax he has to pay a sales tax on what he removes from the bank
but not when he dies.
358 posted on 08/04/2005 12:52:47 PM PDT by higgmeister (In the shadow of The Big Chicken)
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To: rwrcpa1

"BWAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH"

Oh, nooooooo.

Not another poster who thinks that phrase constitutes intelligent discourse! It must be contagious.

LOL


359 posted on 08/04/2005 1:00:37 PM PDT by phil_will1 (My posts are in no way limited or restricted by previously expressed SQL opinions)
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To: RobFromGa
Got link?
http://www.taxreformpanel.gov/meetings/meeting-0705.shtml

Specifically, the presentation on understanding tax bases (although the others are interesting, too). They are in PowerPoint, if you need a viewer, you can get one here.
360 posted on 08/04/2005 1:03:20 PM PDT by Your Nightmare (The FairTax. The first tax plan with Fanboys.)
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