Eastern Europe: Russian-Polish Tensions Rise Over Attack On Russian Children In Warsaw

Radio Free Europe ^ | Wednesday, 03 August 2005 | Valentinas Mite

[Freelance Warrior]

Sorry, but I'm not going to buy that without knowledge of their methods and no sign of independent confirmation.

[lizol]

Somehow I'm not surprised.

Here you have another one:

Playground for Skinheads

Independent 25 Jan 05 (by Andrew Osborn)
Russia's skinheads now account for nearly half of the world's total. Driven by crushing poverty, a lingering sense of humiliation after the collapse of the Soviet Union and outrage over the Chechen separatist attacks, they are among the most savage in their attacks on on-Russians, mostly Caucasians and and non-whites. The offenders, young, white, bomber jacket-clad, prefer to stab repeatedly or beat to death with iron bars, chains or knuckle-dusters. They hunt in packs of three or more. Year 2004 saw 44 race-related killings. There are estimates of about 10,000 skinheads in Moscow and perhaps 5000 in St Petersburg. They are supposed to drink beer, not vodka nor do drugs, though in practice they do. They don't indulge in petty crime, just assault and murder. Many say they resort to violence because of boredom.

The Human Rights Group, Sova, said that in 2004, citizens of at least 24 countries were attacked. "As a rule, the victims have a non-Slav appearance and the attackers are 5 or less. The victim is kicked and beaten with baseball bats and if the group is under 5, usually stabbed." What unites them is a hatred of foreigners, especially anyone with dark features. Nor do they distinguish between children and adults, young and old. They now use screwdrivers and knives.

Alexander Sukharevsky, leader of the extremist National People's Party, preaches the politics of hate, believing that the white race is under threat. He is also deeply anti-Semitic. In a survey, 28% adult Russians would like to bring back special settlements for Jews.

Russia - Immigration, asylum & race. Cases 2004

[lizol]

This is also a good one (source like in post #62):

Diplomats' sons killed
Moscow Times June04,
On 21 May in St Petersburg, a medical student son (Al-Hammali) of a Libyan diplomat was knifed to death. The killing, completely unprovoked, followed a request for a cigarette from a man as Hammali and his brother were heading home before midnight.
On 08 June, the son of a Mongolian diplomat was knifed to death in Irkutsk.


Hay, Warrior! Have you heard of any "formal apology" sent by Russia to Libya or Mongolia?

Such a discussion is very educating, because I didn't know so far about these cases. And I would never find out probably.

Thanks Warrior!

[meema]

bttt

[Freelance Warrior]

Such a discussion is very educating, because I didn't know so far about these cases. And I would never find out probably.
This is a fine example of results of the anti-Russian hate advocated by the Polish mass media and school. A Polish inspite of interesting in Polish affairs which aren't always fine, loose no opportunity to collect the news about something bad happening in Russia.
That exacltly constitutes the difference. No Russian school, no media, to government stirs anti-Polish, anti-Mongolian or anti-Lybian hate. That was the point of Russian MFO's statement. Now the Polish effectively provoke hate to themselves in Russia. E.g. naming a Warsaw's round-about after Dudaev nearly lead to symmetrical answer.

[lizol]

You see, Warrior - either you haven't read what I wrote, or you don't care about it, because you know your "truth" anyway, no matter what argument is risen against it.

I wrote: I didn't know so far about these cases. And I would never find out probably..

I think it was as clear, as possible. Before this discussion with you, before you started spreading BS about racist Poland I wasn't interested in Russian skinheads, or Russian racism at all.

But I'm not going to tolerate a situation, when somebody is saying, that my coutry is allegedly hostile and dangerous towards some kind of foreigners (the Russians in this case), whereas situation in his own coutry is much, much worse.

In English it's called hypocrisy, I think.

So the easiest way to reveal this hypocrisy was to google for "Russia + racism + skinheads" or something similar.

Try it yourself, and you'll never accuse people from other coutry of racism.

[spanalot]

"No Russian school, no media, to government stirs anti-Polish, anti-Mongolian or anti-Lybian hate.

Fascinating !

Then how did the Kremlin come to orchstrate the murder of 100 million in the last century.

Why do you and other Russians continue to justify the fact that not one Russian has ever been prosecuted for these crimes.

[spanalot]

"Ukraine in fact suffered proportionately higher losses of population than Russia"

Wrong - that might be the Kremlin party line but both Poland and Ukraine lost more than "Russia" - and not proportionally but in absolute terms.

All those valiant "Russian " defenders that died at Stalingrad were actually the First Ukrainian Front. They were forced into combat- half of them without firearms -and they were forced at the point of a gun.

And the Kremlin has the nerve to propagate these lies to cover up what amounted to the willful genocide of millions more Ukrainains


http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

[sergey1973]

Ukrainian Front means simply location of troops. The troops were from all over USSR (Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc).
Don't give me ukrainian links because many of them are full of exaggerations too. I use western sources.

[sergey1973]

"And the Kremlin has the nerve to propagate these lies to cover up what amounted to the willful genocide of millions more Ukrainains "

So according to you no single Russian from Russia died in Stalingrad ? Then you have simply no idea what the hell you are talking about. "Front" in the WWII Soviet Military terminology meant army group. Army group had soldiers from all over USSR (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.) Ukrainian front (1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th) was actually formed late in 1943 after the Battle of Stalingrad from troops that were assigned to advance on Ukraine. They definitely had soldiers not only from Ukraine but from Russia, Central Asia--etc. Every major unit of Soviet army (let alone army group that has hundreds of thousands of soldiers) had troops originating from all over fmr. USSR.

Do you think Stalin just wanted to sacrifice Ukrainians and not Russians, Kazakhs, etc ? He was a secret Russophile ? He was an equal opportunity butcher who did not have qualms wasting millions of lives to satisfy his ambitions. His wrath at one point of history or another could be focused on one or the other group, but nobody in the fmr. USSR (not even Stalin relatives) were safe from repressions or mass needles sacrifice on battle fields. He refused to free his own son Yakov Jugashvili from German captivity when offered to exchange him for Nazi General Paulus captured under Stalingrad, saying "I'm not exchanging Generals for Soldiers". Learn history and not just from Ukrainian sources. Use American or British ones. They are the most objective so far.


P.S. By the way my grandpa is a Ukrainian Jew, an infantry leutenant in the Soviet Army in 1943, fighting in the Battles of Kursk and being wounded near the Dnieper river not far from the Kiev a few months later. My grandpa had a friend from military school who was from Moscow. His friend was killed in the Battle of Kursk from the piece of cannon (or shrapnel) that sliced his head off. Grandpa still remembers this very vividly. My grandpa had commanded an infantry platoon that had a number Central Asians (Uzbeks, Kazakhs, etc.) alongside with Russians and Ukrainians.

[spanalot]

what part of this don't you understand?

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

The propaganda about the "Great Russian Sacrifice of WWII" is a bogus forgery.

And don't brag about being affiliated with the
Russian Army - an army that enforced more atrocity than the Nazis.

[sergey1973]

I read the post--stop showing me like some maniac.

"The propaganda about the "Great Russian Sacrifice of WWII" is a bogus forgery. "

Millions of Russians dead alongside Ukrainians, Belarussians, etc. dead in WWII is a forgery ? You read the post that said that Russia officially lost 5.87 million people out of 27 million Soviet citizens, althought the share maybe much higher (Crimea was part of Russian Federation till 1954, there were plenty of Russians in Ukraine and Ukrainians in Russia). Or Maybe you don't understand the very post that you put out there.

"And don't brag about being affiliated with the
Russian Army - an army that enforced more atrocity than the Nazis. "

Nobody brags, you moron. I'm telling you a story what happened to millions and millions of young folks (Russians, Ukrainians, etc) who were thrown into this war for which Hitler and Stalin share equal responsibility although if you recall, Hitler attacked USSR (not the other way around).

My grandpa was drafted, went to military school in 6 month to become an infantry officer, and lost his leg in battle fighting Nazis between Kiev and Belarus near the Dnieper river. His own father was a survivor of Stalin torchure chambers during the great purges of 1937-1938. Grandpa went through the war with honor and he didn't inflict atrocities on anyone, although its a fact that regime that sent him was also ugly as that of Hitler. But grandpa fought foremost for his and his people survival. He didn't inflict atrocity on anyone--he nearly died near Kiev loosing blood after his leg was blown off. It's a miracle that he survived. Most of his generation was destroyed in WWII.

So just shut up and get lost. I'm through with you.

[spanalot]

Here we go - another communist soldier that had nothing to do with the deaths of millions of Ukrainians and Poles.

"Hitler attacked USSR (not the other way around)."

Funny, but most people seem to think that WWII started when the Nazis and Russians invaded Poland. But I am sure your father, etc had nothing to do with inflicting any harm on the millions Ukrainians and Poles that resisted the Kremlin thugs.

Yes, it is always that way. I guess these millions died from falling on pointed sticks.

How convenient that you gloss over this. How convenient that you forget that your beloved Communist Army enforced a plague of genocide that wiped out 100 million in the last century.

It is WE that are through with this nonsense.

[sergey1973]

Listen, for the last time for a special case like you:

My grandpa did not invade Poland in 1939. He was 15 yrs old than. He was drafted in 1942, and wounded in 1943 when USSR fought a DEFENSIVE war against Nazi Germany. His own dad nearly died in Stalin prison during great purges of 1937-1938, but my great grandma was able to get him released from NKVD clutches because she was aquainted with someone who knew Kruschev. Great grandpa was lucky to get out of NKVD clutches alive, although he was lying on his stomach for many months--his back was bruised with torture. NKVD demanded that he signed a papers of being a "spy" for a number of foreign intelligence services.

Also My grandpa's uncle was a prisoner of GULAG. That's a typical story of millions and millions of those living under Soviet Regime.

Also, lots of Ukrainians who served (and died) in the Soviet Army were also survivors of the Ukrainian Holodomor of 1932-1933. For millions of Ukrainians, Russians, etc it was a tragic choice to fight against one exterminator while defending another exterminator, but that was a tragic historical circumstance.

What they were supposed to do--let Hitler "liberate" Ukraine and Russia from Bolsheviks and then let him "liberate" Ukraine from Ukrainians and Russia from Russians ? Stalin and Hitler are the world biggest butchers, but circumstances forced tens of millions under Stalin thumb to take up arms against Hitler MEANING THAT THEY ALSO ENDED UP FIGHTING FOR STALIN.

The democracies like US and UK were forced to ally with one monster Stalin to fight another monster Hitler. That was a TRAGIC HISTORICAL NECESSITY.

Did you get it--FINALLY ?

[spanalot]

"He was drafted in 1942, and wounded in 1943 when USSR fought a DEFENSIVE war against Nazi Germany"

What do you want from me?

I already admitted that notwithstanding the Genocide of 100 million from 1918 to 1991, your Communist Army father is totally absolved as all those that died at the hands of the communists in those years ( about 1 million civilians in Poland/Ukraine) must have died from falling on pointed sticks.

Then again, there were those that did fight the Nazis and Communists .

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-08.html

[sergey1973]

"I already admitted that notwithstanding the Genocide of 100 million from 1918 to 1991, your Communist Army father is totally absolved as all those that died at the hands of the communists in those years ( about 1 million civilians in Poland/Ukraine) must have died from falling on pointed sticks. "

OK, Let's see.

Ukrainian World War II military losses (2,500,000) you mentioned in previous posts in this link are mostly those Ukrainians who fought in the ranks of the Soviet (Russian/Communist) Army from Stalingrad, to Murmansk, from Moscow to Berlin. Therefore, these Ukrainians should be also blamed for Communist Genocide--right ?

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

My grandfather (not father) almost became one of the 2,500,000. He is a Ukrainian Jew, who was born in Jitomir and grew up in Kiev. What was his viable options other than fleeing Kiev to Central Asia and then being drafted there in the Soviet Army ? Stay in Kiev with his family to see it overrun by Germans and to be shot in Babiy Yar along 30,000 other Kiev Jews ? Wait to be rounded up and shipped to Aushwicz, Treblinka, etc to be exterminated as a part of "Final Solution" ?

And did I mention that my grandfather's father (my great grandfather) nearly died in Stalin purges of 1937-1938 and only a miracle saved him from being either tortured to death or shot in NKVD prison ?

So those millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Central Asians, etc who were drafted in the Soviet Army between 1941-1945, often in their late teens and early 20's, and most of whom had family or close relatives perished in Ukrainian Famine, Volga Famine, Stalin Purges, GULAG, and other Communist atrocities and who were sacrificed in droves by Communist Regime and were sent in battle often without rifles (in 1941-1942 there was 1 rifle per 4 soldiers in many units) should be written off as mere servants of communist regime, responsible on Par with Stalin for all the atrocities Stalin henchmen inflicted ?

Ukrainian Famine and most other Stalin atrocities were executed by NKVD troops which were a separate formations from the Soviet Army. Also 10's of thousands of Soviet Army officers and generals (alongside hundreds of thousands of their relatives) were arrested by NKVD and shot by NKVD prisons or ended up in GULAG alongside millions during 1937-1938 Stalin purges. During 1941-1945 war, NKVD troops were placed behind regular Army units and they were ordered to shoot any retreating Soviet Army soldiers. So those caught in 1941-1942 quagmire were facing German Wermaht in front and NKVD units behind them.

This is not to absolve Soviet Army as institution from all the crimes that Communist Regime committed. After all, it was a major pillar on which Communist Regime rested. But those kids who were drafted between 1941-1945 into this army and, poortly trained, sent to battle and died in droves or those that survived the war and returned after the war to their homes just to live their lives must be put on the same scale as those who actually ordered and implemented Communist atrocities ?

[spanalot]

"But those kids who were drafted between 1941-1945 into this army and, poortly trained, sent to battle and died in droves or those that survived the war and returned after the war to their homes just to live their lives must be put on the same scale as those who actually ordered and implemented Communist atrocities ?"

Then why did we have a Nuremburg if Hitler was already dead?

I despise the Bolshevic army and your attempt to whitewash the greatest mass murderers of all time is despicable.

[sergey1973]

"I despise the Bolshevic army and your attempt to whitewash the greatest mass murderers of all time is despicable."

OK--how am I whitewashing the "greatest mass murderers" ? You want to tell that my grandpa and those kids who perished or survived the war with their libms missing were all mass murderers ? Do you also despise millions of Ukrainians (including survivors of Stalin engineered Ukrainian Famine) who served in the Soviet Military ? And I thought you were previously telling they were the ones who stopped Hitler--not Russians ? Or am I missing something ?

How about a million of GULAG prisoners released into Soviet Army after 1941 to fight in penal units with NKVD units behind them and armed to teeth Germans before them ? How about 2,8-4 million Soviet POW's perished in Nazi Camps and those who survived were sent to Stalin Gulags ? Are all of them deserve to be put on par with Stalin, Molotov and other Soviet butchers ?

You told me that I "bragged" about my grandfather being in Soviet Army in WWII ? How about Ukrainian President Yushenko mentioning his father, a Soviet POW and Aushwicz survivor, during January 2005 ceremony commemorating 60th anniversary of Aushwicz liberation ? Should president Yushenko despise his father who also happened to be serving in Bolshevik Military during WWII ? Should most of Russians, Ukrainians, etc. despise they parents, grandparents as Communist minions ?

As for Nurmberg, yes, communist system should have been also put on Nurmberg trial for all the murders and repressions it inflicted. Stalin, Beria, Yeshov, Kalinin, Molotov, Kaganovich and all other top Politburo members deserve to be hanged no less than Nazis.

But it's a despicable injustice to put ordinary kids drafted in the Soviet Military after Hitler attacked USSR on June 22, 1941 on the same level as the Communist regime that send them poorly armed and trained to fight. Also considering Hitler plans for Ukraine, Russia and other European parts of USSR, these kids did in fact fought for the survival of their families and themselves--not just for the regime. The tragic fact of history is that the communist regime has used them to continue its ugly existence and extend its rule in E. Europe. But it's not a ground to despise all of those who served in the Soviet Military back then, especially those who perished on the battlefield and played a huge role in destroying the Nazi machine. It's a view that everyone deserves a fair hearing and good and bad deeds should be weighed for each person. There is absolutely no whitewashing the real murderers (Stalin and Politburo and those who directly participated in mass repressions) except in your twisted line of reasoning.