Eastern Europe: Russian-Polish Tensions Rise Over Attack On Russian Children In Warsaw

Radio Free Europe ^ | Wednesday, 03 August 2005 | Valentinas Mite

[sergey1973]

If you bother with facts, Read Anne Applebaum Book: "Gulag: A History", page 302 Hardcover. She spent years researching the history of GULAG going over all archives imaginable (Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, American, etc.) The majority of GULAG inmates were ethnic Russians throughout GULAG history. That was their "benefit" of living under soviet empire--being the largest group of slaves because they were the largest demographic group in USSR.

Also do the math--if at least 20 million victims of Stalin Regime and at least 25 million Soviet WWII losses were predominantly Ukrainians and Belarussians, there wouldn't be any of them left today. So learn about history from trusted sources or just shut up.

[sergey1973]

"We have a hard enough time getting the facts from the Kremlin-lackey NY Times and do you think I am going to tolerate a Russian website? "

Are you talking about memo.ru site that I gave you ? It's a site of "Memorial Foundation" who works for more than 10 years is to preserve the memory of all the victims of Stalin terror in all the republics of Fmr. USSR (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, etc). Their work is actually frequently obstructed by Putin' Kremlin.

They got bunch of documents showing who was shot were from what republic and what region. So learn the facts before saying any more crap. And read Anne Applebaum book as I suggested where she tells all aspects of GULAG, including its demographic make up.

[sergey1973]

"Lets take all the assets of all the people in a country of 10 million, then take all the food they would have eaten for 3 years, and then allocate those funds to the confines of Russia to build chandalier subways, summer dachas, and various other infrastructure to benefit loyal soviet citizens. "

Build dachas, chandalleers to whom ? To Brezhnev and Communist party elites ? How does it benefit average Russian living somewhere in Novosibirsk, Vladivostok, Ivanovo,or Novokuznetsk working somewhere in coal mines, steel mills, factories, plants, schools, scientific institutions, etc ? Most of Russians during Soviet times had no dachas at all. The average Russians who did, had a poor country houses with tiny plots of land to grow food because outside of Moscow and few other showcases of "developed socialism", it was impossible to buy in grocery shops an adequate nutrition. You had to either grow food or go to country market in cities where prices where higher. If you were traveling in Russia during Soviet times you would see delapidated villages and cities filled with a number of ugly multiapartment buildings where most Russians lived. The communist party had their fabulous dachas all over fmr. USSR including the Ukraine, Baltic States, etc. They had their own supply of anything they needed and they lived fabulously in Russia, Ukraine, Baltic States--everywhere. Also you leave out a "little" detail. Where Ukraine, and a number of other former Soviet republics get gas and oil from during Soviet Times for internal Soviet prices (meaning the tiny fraction of world oil Prices) for decades. Answer: From Russia and Central Asia.

Also do you have any idea how much aid was given by Communist party leadership to spread communism round the world--somewhere in hundreds of billions of dollars. Russian economy was about 60% of overall Soviet Economy so average Russian financed 60% of all the Soviet expenditures to promote this ugly Communist system around the world.
How did it benefit average Russian who was not a member of high echelons of Communist power ? What it did other than bankrupting the Soviet System and wiping out the meager savings by Russian, Ukrainian other pensioners from fmr. USSR ?

In other words, every surviving Russian "benefited" from Soviet system by being a number 1 slave of this system. Average Russian outside of Moscow lived worse than most other Soviet Citizens. One thing is to criticize that most of Russians still don't come to terms with their past and did not look honestly that they were not only victims but also a biggest manpower of the Soviet communist regime. But to say that "every surviving Russian benefited" from this system--it's mother of all craps.

[sergey1973]

"Read and weep , Kremlin propagandists. "

http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-29.html

http://www.faminegenocide.com/resources/famine_map.html

And don't you call me Kremlin propagandist--you find nowhere in my posts any attempts to defend Stalin or any other Kremlin bastard who deserve nothing condemnation. I have no sympathy for Putin either for his attempts to partially rehabilitate Stalin legacy.

Ukrainian Famine was a horrendous crime against humanity, genocide--no question about it. However this famine was a part of USSR wide collectivization that wiped out also millions of Russian, Kazakh and other peasants, although Ukrainians had the highest number of dead proportionately to the population. Also decade before Ukrainian famine, there was a Volga famine that wiped at least 5 millions in Central and Southern Russia and about a million in Ukraine. The only thing that saved Volga Region from complete depopulation was the realization by Lenin that Bolsheviks are unable to grow the food (only take it away from peasantry and rob the rich), so they need these peasants to produce the harvest. So the nascent Soviet Regime back then asked "imperialist" powers to help the starving peasantry of Volga and "imperialists" (United States, Sweden, Britain, etc) saved Volga region from complete depopulation but not until after at least 5 million of Russian Peasants and about 1 million of Ukrainian peasants died.

Stalin engineered famine of 1932-1933 was the result that in Ukraine the resistance to collectivization was higher than in Russia, and he decided to use a weapon of hunger to subdue Ukrainian peasantry. Russian free peasantry was mostly eliminated or subdued during Civil war decade earlier so there were fewer will to resist. The grain taken away from Ukrainian peasants went on export outside of USSR--not to Russia. Stalin is the world worst mass-murderer--that's I know perfectly well.

As for Soviet military losses in WWII, Ukraine in fact suffered proportionately higher losses of population than Russia, but it does not negate the fact that millions of Russians (residents of RSFRS) also perished in WWII. Also the statistics of WWII losses is still not accurate, so the losses of Russia itself maybe much higher than the one quoted.

[Freelance Warrior]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1456865/posts?page=1
This is actually a very good point.
Broken link.
For example - has anyone heard of any formal Russian apology to US after this event?: American editor of Russian Forbes magazine killed. Or did America demand any formal apology from Russia?
Poor example. It isn't a racially motivated crime. If you have the arguments that it is, share them.

[lizol]

Same applies to you.

And how about Russian skinheads burning a student dormitory for Black students in Moscow some time ago.?

Has Russia "formally apologized" for this act to those African countries?

[lizol]

I hope this link will not be broken

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1456865/posts

[Freelance Warrior]

Same applies to you. Do you need a source that the attackers were shouting anti-Russian slogans?
Has Russia "formally apologized" for this act to those African countries?
While neither Russian media nor the authorities provoke anti-African sentiments, at least Polish media does. That's the difference between beatings of African students in Moscow and the incident in a Warsaw's park.

[Freelance Warrior]

1. Very complicated plan, sounds unrealistic.
What's that complicated? Is it that difficult to get a microbus in Warsaw?
2.There was no similar racist incidents in Poland in recent times,
Russian newspaper "Novye Izvestiya" claims there was beating of children from Russia at Warsaw's railway station 6 years ago. Also there was skinheads' attack on Frenchmen. (Stefan Meller, Polish Ambassador to Russia).
3.in opposition to Russia, which have the largest group of skinheads in the world.
How can you count skinheads?

[lizol]

Do you need a source that the attackers were shouting anti-Russian slogans?

What source - ITAR-TASS, RIA Novosti, or Interfax???
Please, give me a brake.

As to your diferentiation between the last event in Warsaw, and those mentioned by me in Moscow - it's just pathetic.

Read the text from the link I provided, maybe it will make you think a little bit without this Russian imperialist bias.

[Lukasz]

What's that complicated? Is it that difficult to get a microbus in Warsaw?

„organized group of skinheads” it is just oxymoron, I never heard about similar actions, group of 15 skinheads attacking somebody and immediately escaping in their microbus. Of course they must knew that those people will coming back to home from cinema. Very funny indeed…

Russian newspaper "Novye Izvestiya" claims there was beating of children from Russia at Warsaw's railway station 6 years ago. Also there was skinheads' attack on Frenchmen. (Stefan Meller, Polish Ambassador to Russia).

6 years ago and even the Frenchmen suffered…. Your examples showing only that I’m right. As a Russian you should not even complain if in your country such attacks are normal. Just recently I read that three(?) Azerbaijanis were attacked in Saint Petersburg. I’m curious wherever Putin already officially apologized Azerbaijan, somehow I doubt…

How can you count skinheads?

I cannot, but there is international organization which aim is to fight racism and xenophobia around the world. They have sections in most of the countries and can estimate such number.

[Freelance Warrior]

As to your diferentiation between the last event in Warsaw, and those mentioned by me in Moscow - it's just pathetic. Read the text from the link I provided, maybe it will make you think a little bit without this Russian imperialist bias.
When someone sinks to labels that means the person has no argument left. There is xenophobia in Russia, but it's not distributed by the media's and not coming from mainstream politicians, like anti-Russian sentiment in Poland.
This difference matters.

[Freelance Warrior]

"organized group of skinheads" it is just oxymoron
Do you think that racists cannot form organised groups because of the nature of their political views?
I never heard about similar actions, group of 15 skinheads attacking somebody and immediately escaping in their microbus.
Sorry, but no criminal is obliged to commit crimes following certain scenarios.
As a Russian you should not even complain if in your country such attacks are normal
I don't feel the need to consult with you on what should I do or shouldn't do. In Russia racists don't receive a message whom to attack from the media or the politicians.
I cannot, but there is international organization which aim is to fight racism and xenophobia around the world. They have sections in most of the countries and can estimate such number.
Ok, so enlighten me, what is method, what's the name of this organisation, who finances it and who has independently confirmed their results.

[lizol]

You see, your every posts shows, that it's you, who has anti-something (anti-Polish in this case) sentiment, and it's obviously Russian media and politicians responsible for that.

Do you monitor Polish media coverage at all times? Or maybe your "brilliant" remarks about Poland are based rather on Russian news, and on statements given by Putin, or Russian MFA?

[lizol]

Russian skinheads most numerous in world"

[Lukasz]

From your source:

“40 murders and hundreds of assaults were committed in Russia for ethnic reasons in 2004, and skinhead groups bear the responsibility for most of them,” Charny was quoted by Interfax as saying.

Unbelievable and they dare to complain!

[lizol]

But - as our noble Russian friend would say probably - There is xenophobia in Russia, but it's not distributed by the media's and not coming from mainstream politicians, like anti-Russian sentiment in Poland.

That beating of 3 Rusian kids by Polish criminals was much, much worse. And remember this. (sarcasm)

[Freelance Warrior]

You see, your every posts shows, that it's you, who has anti-something (anti-Polish in this case) sentiment, and it's obviously Russian media and politicians responsible for that.
I have simply anti-racists sentiment here. I'm pity that you associate the attack by those thugs with Polish case.
Do you monitor Polish media coverage at all times? Or maybe your "brilliant" remarks about Poland are based rather on Russian news, and on statements given by Putin, or Russian MFA? Russian media and politicians payed very little attention to Polish affaires until recently. And now that isn't big. From the other hand, Russian issue is an idee fixee in Poland. I've read quite enough of Polish press and, I would say, many authors are surely racially motivated.

[Freelance Warrior]

That beating of 3 Rusian kids by Polish criminals was much, much worse. And remember this. (sarcasm)
Well, it's true that assaults on aliens in Russia are more frequent than is Poland, but the number of aliens (especially from trans-Caucasian states) are much greater than in Poland. But with such media the reason is simple: it's too difficult to find a Russian.

[lizol]

I'm pity that you associate the attack by those thugs with Polish case

Do I? Man, are we really reading the same texts here?
Wasn't that you and Russian officials, who claim it was not a criminal, but a Polish case???

Russian media and politicians payed very little attention to Polish affaires until recently. And now that isn't big.

BUAHAHAHAHA! Little attention?! Isn't big?! That was a really good one!
Have you ever heard any official statements given - let's say - by President Bush, or Chancellor Shroeder, or Prime Minister Blair, after their citizens got beaten by some criminals, some thugs in other country (resulting with some bruises and 1 broken tooth)?

I've read quite enough of Polish press and, I would say, many authors are surely racially motivated.

What exactly have you read, for example?