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Posted on 07/25/2005 7:17:04 AM PDT by TexKat
Natalee Holloway and friends in Aruba 5/30/05
Hope your golden defended herself and you and that you're both okay. We've had coyotes snatch cats and small dogs from their own yards. This is eastern MA. You can hear them howl eerily early in the am. We've lost at two cats to coyotes -- if you can't get the cats in at supper-time, well, one likes sitting on the garage roof, so he'll be okay. The cat door's open, but they like to be outdoors until all hours.
A favorite place for stashing bodies is foundations. Some years ago, a drug dealer in Worcester, MA was mad at a young woman who owed him $8K. He was about to pour a foundation for a bank in Framingham, and that's where he put her. She 'disappeared'.
Garbage.
Please show the world any posts where I have ever written a word "against Natalee."
[sound of crickets chirping]
You won't be able to. Because I never have.
Gary, you need to get your facts straight before you go trying to convince people on this board that you have expertise at diagnosing "sociopathy," or special insight into this case.
I noticed that you posted something factually wrong about about the m.o. of infamous sociopath Ted Bundy -- and that another FReeper caught you at it.
How much stock should we put in your professed expertise on sociopathy when you get facts like that wrong?
- And when you claim that I've made posts "slanted" "against Natalee" (and confuse me with Rippersnapper, to boot; see post #600) --when I've done no such thing ?
- And when you continue to insist that "Joran is a SOCIOPATH," when you have absolutely zero reliably documented evidence to do so?
As for those of you who jump to the illogical conclusion that somehow, because I've seen teenaged-boy-behavior at close hand, that makes me unduly "sympathetic" to Joran vdS...even to the point of being "blinded" (and less capable viewing facts "objectively" than those of you who have already tried, convicted, and hanged Joran vdS): I send a salty sneeze in your general direction.
My point in posting about my son was to show, as Rippersnapper rightly put it, that "not everyone that is good looking, had good grades, parties a lot and attracted good looking gals was a sociopath." And mixing in a steaming heap o' rumors and malicious gossip does not build an accurate profile of anyone.
And that reminds me, Gary, that I asked you if you had dealt with teenaged boys like Joran in the recent past? Either as a parent, or in some other capacity? I never did see an answer from you to that.
People who claim special expertise and educated insight into this case, please post your credentials. (And if you've done so already, please direct me to those posts.)
Even if they wash the car six ways 'til Sunday, they won't get out every spot if there's any blood. But you'd have to use first class forensic tools, like high intensity light sources to pick up blood or any other bodily fluids. But if they buried her at the beach, and then for some reason dug her up and dumped her in the sea, were they getting rid of traces of sand? (If they had her body in the car transporting her to wherever they dumped her in the sea.)
yawn
Yes, we know, you have a chick magnet son which makes YOU an expert. All that's missing is his photo with girls pawing him.
Technically, if Bundy decapitated his victims, slitting of their throats is required. :-)
I do so agree with you on the constant replay of the Natalee dance videos every night. It is so distracting and unnecessary.
It reminds me of the overplaying of the JonBenet "Cowboy's Sweetheart" video.
What is the point? By now, we all know that Natalee was a very attractive and talented girl.
Enough, already, FOX and Greta!
Sorry GS, but when I read your post I couldn't get that emoticon out of my mind. Sorry...it's a slow work day for me.
Mr. CC and I made the same comment last night.
How does all the latest information regarding the 3 amigos square with the reported phone calls, especially the one that Beth had CC listen to? If I'm not mistaken the timeline indicated that call was around 3:00 am? So...these guys are sitting in the car while Natalee is off making a phone call? Am I missing something here? Helo me out...
Updated: 10:29 a.m. ET July 26, 2005
Guest: Arlene Ellis-Schipper, Don Clark, Steve Emerson, Charles Shoebridge, Gil Alba, Erin Runnion, Adriana Gardella
LISA DANIELS, GUEST HOST: Coming up, a possible break in the Natalee Holloway case. A new witness says he knows where to find Natalee's body.
DANIELS (voice-over): And key suspects in the investigation go to court to get the FBI off their case after Aruba's prime minister orders local authorities to tell the feds everything they know.
DANIELS: Hi everyone. I'm Lisa Daniels. Dan is off tonight.
First up on the docket, NBC News has learned that a potential new witness has come forward in the Natalee Holloway case who may have information about the whereabouts of the Alabama teen who disappeared almost two months ago. This after the Aruban prime minister on Friday urged prosecutors there to give the FBI—quote—“complete access to the files in the case”, prompting outrage from the lawyers of some of the suspects.
NBC's Michelle Kosinski is in Aruba with the very latest. Michelle, fill us in.
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi Lisa. We have so much to talk about today. We have seen such extraordinary movement in this case in one day's time and it seems to be coming from all sides.
First off, we want to show you some video. We just witnessed a re-enactment involving the FBI and local authorities of a witness statement that they obtained recently. The parked car you will see is the Kalpoe brothers' car. The moving car you'll see is the witness' car. The witness claims that he was driving near the Marriott the morning Natalee disappeared and that he saw the Kalpoe brothers with Joran Van Der Sloot in that car around 3:00 in the morning.
That would be after the time the Kalpoe brothers claim they were already at home. Plus there is a second witness who has come forward who claims that he knows where Natalee's body was placed on this island. Because of these two witnesses now, EquuSearch, the team of Texas volunteer searchers is planning to step up its return to this island possibly as early as tomorrow with ground-penetrating radar and they want to search two locations now based on those witness statements.
While that goes on, Beth Holloway, Natalee's mother, has a plan of her own in the form of $1 million coming from donations from friends in the states, a reward for the safe return of her daughter. Also, today, we see four new investigators from Holland added to this case, bringing the total number of investigators to between 20 and 25. One of them, a behavior expert. Two others, experts in interrogation.
And in court today we see attorneys for the suspects go for more in the way of the legal system to try to block prosecutors from opening up their files to the FBI. In one of those cases involving Satish Kalpoe, his attorney is also trying to block the use of a DNA sample from his client. He says this is not a matter of trying to hide any information, but he wants to make sure that things proceed legally in this investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE'S ATTORNEY: (INAUDIBLE) we have rules and we have to follow the rules. I have to follow them and the district attorney has to follow them. It is not because we have nothing to hide. Make it open, let's check into backgrounds of everybody. I mean that is not how it is supposed to be. Today is the FBI; tomorrow it might be the Colombian police, The Venezuelan police, the Chinese police. Where is this going to end?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: He claims prosecutors have not been playing by the rules in this case. That will be worked out in the courts, possibly a hearing will happen tomorrow. And what we expect to see in the next few days is EquuSearch come back and start looking in those locations based on these two new witness statements.
Back to you Lisa.
DANIELS: All right, Michelle, I'm just curious, how did we get that tape? I am surprised that we have it.
KOSINSKI: We were there while this re-enactment was going on. It involved we know the FBI, local authorities, a chopper in the sky, and both of these cars that were supposedly involved early that morning that Natalee went missing.
DANIELS: Michelle, any sense of how much faith the authorities have in the witness who says that they know where Natalee's body is?
KOSINSKI: That is coming from the second witness who came forward very recently over this weekend and that's a great question. I mean we have seen so many clues pop up in this case that may or may not be related in any way. Many of them were discounted early on.
Now witnesses are starting to come out of the woodwork. And what we see, all we know at this point is that authorities obviously are taking these very seriously. Apparently both statements have some detail to them. Of course, in the end they might turn out to be nothing. But at this point authorities, you know, authorities here, searchers are just going by what they have, and at this point that seems to be about it.
DANIELS: All right, thanks so much, Michelle. We appreciate all the developments.
And as Michelle just mentioned, attorneys representing Joran Van Der Sloot and Satish Kalpoe filed two motions today, one trying to limit the FBI's access to the case files, the other one trying to prevent the use of a DNA sample taken from one of the Kalpoe brothers.
And joining us now is Aruban attorney Arlene Ellis-Schipper. Arlene, what are these motions based on?
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: Well, basically the motion that I understand, the injunction proceedings that I understand are based on the fact that the defense attorneys are of the opinion that there are no legal grounds for—to get a search party, a foreign authority involved in this case. You have to understand there is no treaty between Aruba and the United States. The FBI has no judicial power here nor jurisdiction. So I would have to agree with them that there is actually—this creates a precedence.
DANIELS: So there's absolutely no precedence for this motion. Is that correct?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: No, no. I say there is no—this creates a precedent to work together with the FBI like this to get them involved in an investigation. The FBI, we are a sovereign county. The FBI has no jurisdiction here, so there is no legal basis why they should be involved in this case.
DANIELS: And is that pretty much the general consensus among the legal community in Aruba?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well basically, we are—it is consensus. However, we look (INAUDIBLE) a little differently towards the involvement of the FBI. First of all, the involvement is on an advisory basis. So it shows goodwill of the Aruban authorities. And a lot of us, we agree with that showing of goodwill because we have confidence in our own investigators. And by opening up, you maybe get some, for once and a while, fair criticism from their colleagues, so why not. But from a defense point of view, I could agree with them that there is no legal basis.
DANIELS: But there is another motion too that we are not talking about, which is to get the DNA evidence kicked out. What do you feel about that one?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, from what I understand I just heard about that. I don't know about that motion. However, apparently the defense attorney of one of the Kalpoe brothers feels that there was no reason to take the DNA test. I have no idea what substantiates that appeal to that decision. Because that is an appeal from an order of the judge of instruction to take that DNA material.
DANIELS: Here have you a witness, Arlene, who came forward Friday saying your timeline is wrong basically to the police. The Kalpoe brothers were at a racket club. They weren't where you thought they were. Is that enough basis for hauling these guys back into police custody?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: Well, I would say that there is—we have to take a close look at that. If indeed they have evidently deceitful declaration and if the witness that came across is credible and they can put them there at that time that it was feasible that he was driving there, I think there is quite reason to arrest them again, yes.
DANIELS: So what is your gut saying at this point? Do you think that we're going to be seeing back in police custody to answer some follow-up questions?
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: It depends. My gut feeling says that they probably will be requested to be interrogated again.
DANIELS: Yes.
ELLIS-SCHIPPER: And if they refuse there will be an order for their arrest.
DANIELS: All right, I think this case is just about to heat up again.
Arlene Ellis-Schipper thanks so much for joining me now. We appreciate it.
Now we're going to turn to former FBI special agent Don Clark with some insight. Don, let me ask you, why is the FBI involved in this case?
DON CLARK, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well it's very simple, Lisa. They have been asked. They have been requested to come over and give some assistance. They started off early on taking divers down, taking a lot of people down, profilers and a number of other investigators trying to assist in this case because they were invited in. That happens routinely in a number of countries, even in (INAUDIBLE) own country, the FBI may not have jurisdiction in a particular small town, a village, or some of the larger cities quite frankly depending on the crime...
DANIELS: OK...
CLARK: ... but nonetheless they come in.
DANIELS: Let me rephrase this. Do you think it is appropriate, Don, that the FBI is moving in based on one person missing in Aruba?
CLARK: I don't think whether or not it's appropriate or not is the issue. I think the issue is, is that a crime has been committed in a particular country. The person that's the victim of the crime is a United States citizen and obviously that country's authorities feel that they need some assistance in this. I think it would be wrong for the FBI to just categorically say no, we won't do anything if you've asked for some assistance. So I think it's appropriate that they're there. Yes, I do.
DANIELS: OK. Well that's another question. Is there a precedent for this in other countries, in other cases that the FBI would move in for a single person's missing case?
CLARK: Well I cannot think of a single person missing case, but I can think of a number of places and again I go back to even cities and towns in our country where the FBI has been requested to come in. Clearly, some of the larger metropolitan places, for instance, for an example, like London or some of the other cities may not be as apt to invite the FBI in because they have ample resources. But smaller places clearly some of the South American places and other places have requested that the FBI come in and assist.
DANIELS: But what gets to me is that it is all so public. The FBI is now moving in. Investigators from Holland are moving in. Is this all to sort of satisfy the public's need for something to be done? Is this a response to the family's push for something to be done?
CLARK: Well I think we've kind of generated that. People like me and others who are talking about it and talking about what the FBI is going to do, and the cameras are constantly on them all the time. So yes, it has been a lot more exposure than even some of the homegrown kidnappings and disappearances that we've had found here that go by the wayside.
So yes, this has gotten a lot of publicity and I can't attribute that one way or the other. But I can say that I don't think that publicity has anything to do with whether or not the FBI should or should not be there assisting these authorities if they are requested.
DANIELS: All right, well you're a former FBI special agent. What does the FBI do on a day-to-day basis right now? They are in Aruba. It's two months later. What do they do?
CLARK: Well I know that answer because I happen to talk to some people down—back at FBI headquarters and clearly they have people reviewing documents, re-reviewing documents. They have them looking at evidence to see, and they really do have them working with the Aruban authorities trying to figure out a strategy. Maybe there's something been left out. Are there other approaches that they can take with this? So they are working closely with them to try to determine if there is another approach to this or if they've overlooked something.
DANIELS: I'm sure the Aruban authorities love this. Here come the Americans, the FBI. We've got the Holland investigators here. How are all of these teams going to work together? You just heard this local attorney saying why is the FBI getting access to things that the Aruban authorities don't have access to. It's just unfair.
CLARK: Well I wouldn't say it's unfair. What fair is, is try to put everything you can together to solve this particular crime. Whether you think the FBI should be there or not, they are there. The crime has occurred. A disappearance or whatever may have occurred, so you try to put everything together.
I think the Aruban authorities are doing the right thing to try to draw from every bit of resources that they have to see if they can solve this crime. Defense attorneys, they've got to say what they need to say to defend their clients. But the government, the FBI was called in, and I think they have agreed to go over and once they agree to do that, then they've got to put everything forward to try to solve this crime.
DANIELS: Yes. Who cares what the defense attorneys think, right, Don?
(LAUGHTER)
CLARK: Not necessarily. I lived with them too long.
DANIELS: All right, I'm sure you have. Don Clark thanks so much.
CLARK: You bet. Thank you...
LOL...Okay, I'll step away...for a short while.
lolol thats cute and sick all at same time. :0)
It was never established that any call came from Natalee. Call from an unknown source was jumped on as being from Natalee by many, and stories spun up around it. My first thought (way back then), was ransom demand, traced to vds.
"My point in posting about my son was to show, as Rippersnapper rightly put it, that "not everyone that is good looking, had good grades, parties a lot and attracted good looking gals was a sociopath."
For the umpteenth time, this thread is NOT about your son.
give it a rest already.
"Please show the world any posts where I have ever written a word "against Natalee."
You never have said anything against Natalee. You've been very supportive of her and her family.
And I'll bet your son is a great guy!
So do you think the content of the call rumored to be "Are you calling home", may not have been the content at all? I know there was some speculation that what was being listened to may have been sounds more than voices, but Beth sure seemed to think it was important enough to detemine it had something to do with Natalee. Since there are not reports of a ransom demand what do you think the call was about?
She would use Dave's name and from what we've seen, she does. Natalee Holloway. My guess is that it depends on the type of documents. My daughter is my husband's step-daughter. Her father wanted no part of her life and disappeared. The reason most men allow their biological children to be adopted by their step-fathers is so that they will no longer be legally obligated to pay child support. The possibility of adoption was raised in court for us, but my daughter did not want to legally change her name to my husbands, so that was the end of the story. She was old enough to make that decision (she was 14 at the time) and her father's attorney assured us that no judge in the state would ask her to change her desire.
For school-type things that needs a parents signature, a local step-father's signature would do if mom was unavilable or two sigs were needed. The only time I would have had a difficult time was when my daughter went to Mexico. When you cross the border, the legal, biological father has to give written permission.
The biggest problem is that there might not be any blood, especially if she were smothered or strangled.
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