Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.
The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.
Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".
Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.
Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.
Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.
"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.
Under surveillance
However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.
"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.
He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.
Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.
Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.
Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.
In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.
Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.
"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.
"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
'Highly trained'
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.
Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.
"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"
EXPIRED visa! (Spellcheck doesn't always help. Need more coffee!)
The armed police here are all fully trained in the use of firearms, and the situations in which to use them. Shooting at people running away would not have been done if suicide bombers hadn't started rearing their ugly heads.
The difference to the US is that it's the public that aren't generally expecting to encounter armed police.
They HE screwed up, as even they now admit.
I'm with the police.
Exactly so. It's not as if the police were out to get just anyone. And I am going to withhold judgment on the victim as there may be facts of which we are unaware.
Who is to say that terrorists won't align with non-Muslims to get what they want?
I do think it's curious that there's a big surprise among the ROP that British authorities have a shoot to kill policy.
I still think so too.
I heard that on the news, too. Five cops tackled him, had him on the ground, and then they blow his head off. Admittedly we don't have all the facts, but that seems to be the most disturbing part in all this.
hmmmmm....I am thinking Texas border patrol.....
I heard on the (DC) news this morning that it wouldn't - the policy stands. Anyone refusing a direct order from police to halt will be shot dead.
I believe he just happened to be passing the house. It's all just a stack of unfortunate coincidences (e.g. I'm sure he didn't consider that wearing a big coat would make him a suspected suicide bomber).
No, in the US we would have a big scandal for arresting him as it would come out that he would have had to listen to Barney and Sesame Street while incarcerated. The ACLU would thunder that this is a violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause (Unusual, yes; cruel? definitely not).
These were just regular cops. They WERE experienced with guns. But they thought they were probably dealing with a suicide bomber. What would you have done? Asked to see his ID before he blew himself and everyone else up, assuming he had been a terrorist instead of someone in the country illegally?
How does this scenario sound? Terrorists who are in the building become aware that they are being watched by the police. They somehow send this guy out, wearing a heavy coat as a diversion to get the police following HIM while they get away themselves. Perhaps he was a decoy?
All concerned screwed up.
You,re not looking at things in perspective...American police (of which I was one) have not had to deal with terrorist bombers. I've had people point guns at me and there is always a second or two to make a decision...not so with a terrorist who is concealing the detonator in his hand. Under the circumstances, I feel for those bobbies. They will live with this for the rest of their lives. But they face dangers we only read about. I think they did a superb job on this one and I hope someone in authority tells them they did.
If someone had blown up a NY subway the week before, damn straight we'd shoot to kill under the same circumstances.
were=weren't - sorry
It's not as simple as that.
To start with, cops in disguise were the ones saying stop- not uniformed police. Second, in the UK, a cop is not normally thought of as a 'Man with a Gun'. Ordinary cops don't carry firearms here. Third, it's not immediately clear that the cops' shouts to stop were heard by the man. Some eyewitnesses report that they didn't hear any warnings.
I think, given all the factors, the police took the necessary action. But it isn't as simple as it would be for someone in the States. In the US it is known by all that the police are going to be blasting away at you. Here, you've got it in your head that you might get a good thumping with a stick if you don't stop. If guys in plain clothes are chasing you with guns here, it is somewhat understandable that your first reaction is not 'Police'.
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