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Shooting victim had expired visa
BBC News ^ | July 25, 2005 | Staff

Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan

The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.

Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.

The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.

Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".

Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.

Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.

Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.

"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.

Under surveillance

However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.

"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.

"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."

Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.

He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.

Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.

Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.

Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.

In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.

Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.

"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.

"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

'Highly trained'

Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.

Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.

Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.

"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: brazil; okwithme; shootemalltobesafe; terrorism; uk
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To: MadIvan
Five shots to the head for an expired visa? Boy are the Brits strict.

Seriously, from what I have read the suspect looked and acted suspiciously. The police told him to halt and he jumped the turnstile and fled. The police chased him down five of them wrestled him to the ground and one of them shot him.

It is hard to Monday morning quarterback the cop's decision in this case, especially after so many bombings and deaths this last month. If this guy was wearing a heavy coat (that looked like he was wearing something underneath) in July, running from the cops and then jumped on a subway with innocent civilians aboard and I was one of the cops and had to wrestle him down, I would have shot him in the head too to keep him from detonating a bomb.

Another thing, what if this guy was deliberately set up by the extremists to walk into the subway dressed as he was to test the security procedures the Brits put into place?
21 posted on 07/25/2005 5:25:55 AM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: MadIvan
Can cops in the UK even check a person's visa on the spot? I know they don't do that here.

The guy would probably have been searched and nothing would have happened to him. Maybe he thought they were in pursuit because of the visa issue?
22 posted on 07/25/2005 5:26:10 AM PDT by varyouga
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To: Miss Marple

EXPIRED visa! (Spellcheck doesn't always help. Need more coffee!)


23 posted on 07/25/2005 5:27:23 AM PDT by Miss Marple (Karl Rove is Plame-proof.)
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To: Brilliant

The armed police here are all fully trained in the use of firearms, and the situations in which to use them. Shooting at people running away would not have been done if suicide bombers hadn't started rearing their ugly heads.

The difference to the US is that it's the public that aren't generally expecting to encounter armed police.


24 posted on 07/25/2005 5:28:23 AM PDT by FostersExport
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To: Brilliant
They screwed up, as even they now admit.

They HE screwed up, as even they now admit.

25 posted on 07/25/2005 5:28:57 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: MadIvan


I'm with the police.


26 posted on 07/25/2005 5:29:25 AM PDT by Unicorn (Too many wimps around.)
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To: Naomi4; MadIvan

Exactly so. It's not as if the police were out to get just anyone. And I am going to withhold judgment on the victim as there may be facts of which we are unaware.

Who is to say that terrorists won't align with non-Muslims to get what they want?

I do think it's curious that there's a big surprise among the ROP that British authorities have a shoot to kill policy.


27 posted on 07/25/2005 5:29:45 AM PDT by saveliberty (Liberal= in need of therapy, but would rather ruin lives of those less fortunate to feel good)
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To: Miss Marple

I still think so too.


28 posted on 07/25/2005 5:30:04 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Americanexpat
The police chased him down five of them wrestled him to the ground and one of them shot him.

I heard that on the news, too. Five cops tackled him, had him on the ground, and then they blow his head off. Admittedly we don't have all the facts, but that seems to be the most disturbing part in all this.

29 posted on 07/25/2005 5:30:18 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Americanexpat
Five shots to the head for an expired visa? Boy are the Brits strict.

hmmmmm....I am thinking Texas border patrol.....

30 posted on 07/25/2005 5:30:39 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: The Sons of Liberty
I hope this doesn't deter the police from their "shoot to kill" policy.

I heard on the (DC) news this morning that it wouldn't - the policy stands. Anyone refusing a direct order from police to halt will be shot dead.

31 posted on 07/25/2005 5:32:37 AM PDT by nina0113
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To: alicewonders

I believe he just happened to be passing the house. It's all just a stack of unfortunate coincidences (e.g. I'm sure he didn't consider that wearing a big coat would make him a suspected suicide bomber).


32 posted on 07/25/2005 5:32:47 AM PDT by FostersExport
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To: cbkaty

No, in the US we would have a big scandal for arresting him as it would come out that he would have had to listen to Barney and Sesame Street while incarcerated. The ACLU would thunder that this is a violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause (Unusual, yes; cruel? definitely not).


33 posted on 07/25/2005 5:33:26 AM PDT by saveliberty (Liberal= in need of therapy, but would rather ruin lives of those less fortunate to feel good)
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To: Brilliant

These were just regular cops. They WERE experienced with guns. But they thought they were probably dealing with a suicide bomber. What would you have done? Asked to see his ID before he blew himself and everyone else up, assuming he had been a terrorist instead of someone in the country illegally?


34 posted on 07/25/2005 5:34:19 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: MadIvan

How does this scenario sound? Terrorists who are in the building become aware that they are being watched by the police. They somehow send this guy out, wearing a heavy coat as a diversion to get the police following HIM while they get away themselves. Perhaps he was a decoy?


35 posted on 07/25/2005 5:34:33 AM PDT by alicewonders
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To: cbkaty

All concerned screwed up.


36 posted on 07/25/2005 5:35:04 AM PDT by FostersExport
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To: Brilliant

You,re not looking at things in perspective...American police (of which I was one) have not had to deal with terrorist bombers. I've had people point guns at me and there is always a second or two to make a decision...not so with a terrorist who is concealing the detonator in his hand. Under the circumstances, I feel for those bobbies. They will live with this for the rest of their lives. But they face dangers we only read about. I think they did a superb job on this one and I hope someone in authority tells them they did.


37 posted on 07/25/2005 5:35:58 AM PDT by offduty (spending WAY too much time here)
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To: Brilliant

If someone had blown up a NY subway the week before, damn straight we'd shoot to kill under the same circumstances.


38 posted on 07/25/2005 5:36:56 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: mlc9852

were=weren't - sorry


39 posted on 07/25/2005 5:37:16 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: absolootezer0
what's the deal? cop says stop, you keep running, you get shot

It's not as simple as that.

To start with, cops in disguise were the ones saying stop- not uniformed police. Second, in the UK, a cop is not normally thought of as a 'Man with a Gun'. Ordinary cops don't carry firearms here. Third, it's not immediately clear that the cops' shouts to stop were heard by the man. Some eyewitnesses report that they didn't hear any warnings.

I think, given all the factors, the police took the necessary action. But it isn't as simple as it would be for someone in the States. In the US it is known by all that the police are going to be blasting away at you. Here, you've got it in your head that you might get a good thumping with a stick if you don't stop. If guys in plain clothes are chasing you with guns here, it is somewhat understandable that your first reaction is not 'Police'.

40 posted on 07/25/2005 5:37:36 AM PDT by Prodigal Son
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