Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.
The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.
Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".
Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.
Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.
Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.
"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.
Under surveillance
However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.
"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.
He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.
Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.
Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.
Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.
In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.
Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.
"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.
"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
'Highly trained'
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.
Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.
"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"
Not paying for mass transit and jumping the turnstile is not a good idea.
The Police did the only thing they could under the circumstances. This "victim" might be a nominee for this year's "Darwin Awards" in fact. Hard to top the number of truly stupid moves he made, if really innocent.
To smother a potential blast.
Well I’m not a lawyer, but I believe the rules of engagement are that the police can shoot someone if they believe that person is a danger to the police or the public. Three weeks ago, this would mean they would not shoot at someone running away from them. The arrival of suicide bombers has changed that, because it’s so much harder to tell if they are a danger to the public.
The rules are engagement make perfect sense (IMO), but mistakes will happen. As I say, I’m quite sure US rules would match the ones we now have in place, were suicide bombers to arrive in the US.
So what is five in the head?
Total neurological dis-function rendering the perp incapable of detonating an explosive device usually concealed under a large, loose jacket.
>Well he probably didn't know who they were. They were in plain clothes - he could have thought they were a gang - especially if they were young/looked young.<
So he jumped the turn style in a subway station running over with cops.Use your head he had no reason to fear a mugging in the middle of the day with a cop at every turn.Reasoning like this from watching to much TV is the reason we have OJ juries that turn criminals loose because of "reasonable doubt".
Sure. What better way to combat suicide bombers than with kamikaze cops?
Maybe in the future when the police yell "STOP", non-terrorist citizens will actually stop. And by the way, being Brazilian doesn't mean you can't also be a terrorist or working with terrorists. Maybe his story isn't over. To repeat: Why was he wearing a padded coat in the middle of summer? And surely he knew that the armed police weren't chasing down people with expired work visas. Had he been a terrorist and had the bomb exploded and had innocent people been murdered, all of England would be demanding to know why the police didn't shoot him.
A lot of excess adrenalin.
I have read the whole thread and your comment sums it up for me -- have no sympathy for anyone that stays in a Country after their student visa has expired.
All you have to do is remember Moussaouri and the people around him that had expired student visas way before 9-11. They lived here in Norman, were friends with Nicholas Berg, and at least one of them along with Moussaouri is still in jail and hope it stays that way.
The police made the right decision under the circumstances.
This actually would have been a brilliant tactic by Islamists. They can still adopt it, in fact. Send in a few guys who look suspicious, but actually are no threat, and have the police kill them and then wait for the outrage and the end of the shoot to kill policy and the use of profiling. A perfect way to make the UK's defenses softer.
Good one! I like it!
He called it a "righteous shoot" even though the results were tragic, and said he would have done the same were he faced with the same situation. Facing the threat of terrorism means having to make that awful decision between one person's life and that of dozens of people. Shooting to wound isn't an option on a suicide bomber for reasons amply explained elsewhere.
The people this poor man's family should be focusing their anger towards are the bombers, who put SO19 or whatever branch of the Met Police who were involved, in this terrible situation.
Probably cheaper than the bullet-proof vest.
I'm sure the ACLU is working hard to get them out.
Trigger pressure too light when stress level is too high.
Remember this Cop thought he was falling on a live bomb. He had no reason to believe he wasn't and 8 (recent) reasons to believe he was.
It's not clear he heard them. And they were plain-clothes cops, so it wasn't clear they were really cops, even.
He resisted arrest. (3rd offense)
Perhaps, not knowingly.
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