Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.
The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.
Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".
Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.
Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.
Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.
"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.
Under surveillance
However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.
"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.
He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.
Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.
Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.
Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.
In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.
Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.
"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.
"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
'Highly trained'
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.
Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.
"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"
Looking for you. Be back.
There is no right to run from the police.
I don't think the US cop would have pulled the trigger under these circumstances. And yes, the statement above is true, but in the US, a cop can't shoot someone simply because they disobey an order by the cop to stop. You've got to have more than that. I think this guy would still be alive if the British cops had been more experienced at making these decisions. If your cops are precluded by law from carrying guns, then you just don't get that experience.
I’m don’t think the status of his visa, if it was indeed out of date, is relevant other than being a reason he might run if challenged. The cops didn’t know who he was, let alone the status of his visa.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20050723_attacks_london_050722/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Paragraph of interest:
Brazilian media reported Menezes, an electrician by trade, had been living legally in Britain for three years.
"He spoke English very well, and had permission to study and work there," Menezes' cousin Maria Alves -- who lives in Sao Paulo, Brazil -- told the O Globo Online website.
By the way, is Brazil helping in the WOT? Anyone know?
Google: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-01,RNWE:en&q=London+shooting+victim
Not even wing him or an ankle shot?
Well he probably didn't know who they were. They were in plain clothes - he could have thought they were a gang - especially if they were young/looked young.
OK, we have 5 cops tackle him and then they worry about the bomb detonating?
I question the notion that our armed police are that much less experienced than the average US cop. Armed police in the UK are specialists; carrying and using guns is their job.
Having said that, I’m not sure whether these were plain-clothed armed policeman, or undercover detectives just trained to use firearms (not the same as armed response policemen).
I question (but don't outright dispute) the notion that our armed police are that much less experienced than the average US cop. Armed police in the UK are specialists; carrying and using guns is their job.
Having said that, I’m not sure whether these were plain-clothed armed policeman, or undercover detectives just trained to use firearms (not the same as armed response policemen).
It doesn’t sound great does it? But conceivably he could have been holding a detonator. Grabbing him by the arms would do anything about that.
It’s difficult to fully apportion blame without knowing exactly what everyone saw, and I doubt we ever will know that.
His English was perfect - in fact, there were only two English words he didn't understand. "Stop" and "police."
Maybe it's just because I'm a lawyer, but I'd be curious to know what their rules of engagement are, and whether they violated them. I don't think this would pass muster under the US rules of engagement. Maybe there is just something wrong with their rules of engagement.
'Fraid you're going to need a bullet proof hood and face mask for these times... These boys go for the head...
Let's suppose for a minute that he was a terrorist, that he fled police, jumped over a turnstile and got on the train, at which point he blew up himself and everyone there. People would have been screaming that the police were derelict in their duty to protect the public. That is the scenario the police were trying to avoid, and they should not be criticized in the least. New rules: if you're wearing a heavy coat in the summer, with wires sticking out of it, don't run from the police, don't jump over subway turnstiles, don't run for a train that's about the leave the station. Bottom line, however regrettable this episode is, a warning shot has been fired, and it was fired to protect civilians and civilization. We shouldn't second guess the police.
Thanks for the follow-up. Clearly his English was well enough to know stop and police. The wires in a bag certainly could have led a cop to believe he had a bomb.
But what about the police -- were they plainclothes or uniformed? Could he have thought they were gang members?
MJ
How is it not relevant?
OK had he renewed his visa, he would be dead with a visa.
But had his visa expired and was unable to be renewed he wouldn't have been there.
Especially with things like this going on:
Raids smash student visa racket
The raids were carried out by the Operation Maxim team
Twenty people have been arrested in a series of dawn raids to crack down on a major student visa immigration scam.
More than 120 officers from Scotland Yard's specialist crime directorate searched 12 addresses across London and Essex.
These included two suspected bogus colleges in Tooting in south London.
The raids aim to end an immigration racket estimated to have brought about 1,000 people into London and earned the perpetrators millions of pounds.
Wednesday morning's operation, codenamed Taming, was the largest yet to be carried out by the Metropolitan Police under the banner of Operation Maxim, an initiative to tackle organised immigration crime in London.
END
You may say, "All the more reason to run"
You also have to remember: The police saw him come out of the apartment they had been watching (not the flats in general), saw him get on the bus (?) and followed him all the way to the stop where he headed for the tube station. Does that seem random to anyone?
I read plainclothes. These were the same ones that saw him leave the apartment and board the bus then followed him from the bus to the train station. Don't get the boarding the bus part...but hey.
True, I have the train station video somewhere.
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