Posted on 07/24/2005 6:09:07 PM PDT by Brian328i
We should be using common ground to forge a strong relationship with Russia. I have no idea why we are not. They have a lot to lose from terrorism, and they are vulnerable. So are we. Together we could make things a lot harder for terrorists. I'd venture to say Russia might be motivated to go after longtime allies Iran and Syria if we played this right. They more than likely supply Russia's Moslem problem.
Meanwhile, Russia builds a nuclear reactor and provides nuclear know-how to the lunatic Mullahs who have promised to nuke Israel at the first opportunity.
Apparently, the Kremlin is filled with nuts, too.
I'm referring to the terrorist regime in Tehran, Iran.
If we could keep the LSD out of the White House and Kremlin water for one week, it would help.
.... and they did not support us in Iraq, Putin visited Israel, and they are still getting bombed .....
Those you refer to in Tehran aren't even nuts. They're less sane than Kim Jong-Il.
We should have been forging those ties you suggest YEARS ago.
It takes two to tango.
The problem is much more intractable in Russia, because it is mixed with irredentism. Their best bet would probably to cut the Islamic regions loose and put up a big fence, but they are unwilling to lose any territory.
Friends like that are best kept as enemies until a leader comes along that wants real rapprochement with America, rather than playing off Europe and Asia against us while pretending a dance macabre with China.
If such a time comes, I hope that we seize the offer. But it has to be genuine.
The Chinese are also seeing terrorist attacks on their soil, especially in the western portions.
We should also work with the Chinese on fighting terror. They have also been having trouble with the Islamists.
The nuclear weapons know-how is coming from our bossom buddy and trusted ally Pakistan.
So your suggestion is to admit defeat, tuck tail and run from the Islamics. Best India give up its NW territories. Thailand give up half its country. The Phillipines give up its southern islands. Isreal just disappears. Nigeria looses it's nothern half and so on. Maybe we should give up parts of NY to the Islamics too?
Well, the alternative involves wiping out entire nations, men, women, and children, which is something that is generally frowned upon nowadays.
Of course, it has been done....
The question is as it always was, especially with Islam: who will survive: us or them? I prefer us. If it means melting their cities, it is a fate they bring upon themselves by following their devil faith.
We are careful just like they are careful!
This is kind of like WWII. Throughout all of WWII we neither trusted nor liked them and they neither trusted nor liked us. However, we were both allied in fighting Nazi Germany.
You must understand, they still have a lot of leaders in charge who are hardliners. Their media is state controlled and the government plays games as they did with the magic firm that popped up from no where and bought out a oil producer. Russia is not clear. It’s not an open society by a long shot and corruption is rampant.
We are moving forward together though. US firms have invested money, there have even been technological exchanges in defense. But we are cautious as they are too. Do you really think we could have US troops in Kyrgyzstan (Where there are still Russian bases as well!), Uzbekistan or the Rep. of Georgia without the Russian approval? It would be as if they set up shop in Grenada (Remember that?). We are already working together and even when it comes to arms inspections there is a lot of progress. Something that no one cares about since it’s no scandal is the fact that Russia holds itself to the agreements very well, as we do. There have been numerous military exchanges in the last years and the understanding between us is growing.
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=7079
We are visiting them as well. These events are important.
My point is that we are working together much more than the layperson thinks. The perceptions are changing on both sides. There is still distrust on both sides and speaking as an American (With my perception) we are justified to be very careful since there are indicators that all is not well in Russia internally.
Red6
Thanks for the comments. No, I don't think we should have troops in those areas unless we were asked to sind a small task force to help train or learn with/from our Russian counterparts.
I think we missed a great opportunity to work closely with the Russians last year when that school was taken over. We should take advantage of Russian needs at times when it would be beneficial for both of us to work together closely.
Any information we pick up could help in our efforts to zero in on groups and orgs. With Russian troops working on things in their territory, we could network together.
It's my perception that Russia sometimes sees us flitting around the globe and gets antzy. If we were working closely together, they'd feel engaged and much more comfortable with our actions. That could avoid a cooling of relations and in fact, bring us much closer together.
I realize that there are still misgivings on both sides, but it should be our goal to alleviate them.
(Just my opinions)
“I think we missed a great opportunity to work closely with the Russians last year when that school was taken over.” You say.
Well, we offered help when the Kursk sank. Fact is, they don’t trust us and there is national pride at play here too. Besides, this is a national internal issue where we could have provided little help. Given a group of determined terrorist who are willing to blow themselves up you are hard pressed to stop once their plan is rolling like at Beslan. Could we really have done anything different? Probably not.
“With Russian troops working on things in their territory, we could network together.” You say
As in WWII we are allies in that we are trying to slay the same pig here, Islamic radicals. However, as in WWII our end state and methods of operating are very different. Chechnya is a good example. They are not interested in a sovereign Chechnya. They will still be in Chechnya when we have long left Georgia. Why? While we are both fighting Islamists, there end state is to stop Chechnya from breaking away. Russia still thinks in terms of “Spheres of influence” and is by definition a hegemon.
“It's my perception that Russia sometimes sees us flitting around the globe and gets antzy.” You say
The Warsaw pact is gone. NATO is expanding in Eastern Europe. Lithuania, Rep. of Georgia and many other former parts of the USSR want nothing to do with Russia. Russia failed in Afghanistan, we are winning and it took us weeks to roll over that place. Our success in Iraq is UNPRECIDENTED. Our success in the Rep. of Georgia is a sore in the eye for the Russians when you look at neighboring Chechnya where the Russians are still having a hard time. US troops are all along the boarder of Russia and are in Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Rep. of Georgia, and other places. They lost the Cold War. They are economically smaller and militarily weaker. What’s the point? They don’t trust us and they would like to see us fall off our horse. Russia thinks like an empire. But it can’t be one since it economically can’t afford it. We are number one, and that simple fact bothers most others, even our close allies, since everyone wants to be the number one. It’s kindergarten psychology that is at work here at a national level. Furthermore, there is some fear. They know what our capabilities are, and it scares them.
“I realize that there are still misgivings on both sides, but it should be our goal to alleviate them.” You say
Not necessarily. Not if it means that we have to derail our efforts in desired “end states” and “methods” of operating. Think of it this way, would Russia EVER have wanted us to go into Iraq? No. Why? They were profiting from the Oil For Food program and were doing oil business there. They were exporting like mad to Iraq and Saddam for them was not such a bad deal. It was the US that was paying for the Northern and Southern Watch. It was our troops stationed in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia for 11 years, getting blown up in attacks, separated from families and it was the US tax payer flipping the bill for it all. It was US SF teams that died in Northern Iraq supporting the Kurds. It was primarily US ships enforcing the embargo imposed on Iraq. Could the US and Russia have ever seen eye to eye on Iraq? No. For them our invasion into Iraq is an expansion of our power. It’s a loss of major business for them. We were simply never going to agree on this issue. Our goals and methods of operating are different. Sometimes our interests collide and we simply can not always be a happy team that works together. Could we get away with leveling whole cities as was done with Groznyy or others in Chechnya? No. How we do things is a bit different. They impose a media blockade in Chechnya to this day. Could we do that in Iraq? No. When they were in Afghanistan they used gas and dropped explosive laden toys (Toe poppers- a cripple is no threat). Could we do that? No. Again, we are different, with different goals, ways of thinking, social structures, methods of operating etc and while we are slaughtering the same pig today, we are not friends and how well we work together is also limited somewhat by “how” we operate.
“I don't think we should have troops in those areas unless we were asked to sind a small task force to help train or learn with/from our Russian counterparts. “ You say
The Global War On Terror is in reality a global war against Islamist radicals. Bush can’t state it in those terms since this would reenergize those who say we are in a war against Muslims. Our center of gravity in the Cold War was in Europe and a few other places. Our center of gravity today is in North Africa, Middle East, the Caucasus and Pakistan. Iran, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan- all deal or have dealt with terror. AQ, Hammas, Hezbollah and and and have there shop set up there. Even the bombers in London, Madrid came from there or were trained there. This is the new center of gravity. It is where we are fighting the GWOT, our new Cold War. Ignoring it, won’t make it go away. It would be like not going for a mammogram because you’re afraid they may find something. The problem will not go away through ignoring it like Clinton did (WTC 1993, Kohbar towers, USS Cole, US embassies…….) As with the Communist threat years ago, we have a real threat out there that must be dealt with. We need to be in those places.
Red6
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