Lessons learned from monkeying with history [Revisiting Scopes]

MSNBC ^ | July 18, 2005 | Alex Johnson

[johnnyb_61820]

“The general idea we have of the Scopes trial is that it was largely a kind of rural Southern phenomenon. That’s really caused trouble for people trying to understand the anti-evolution movement: From Scopes we got this idea that it was simply yahoos in overalls who didn’t like book-learnin’,” Moran said. “What’s happened in the last 40 years is creationism has become quite suburban, even quite well-educated and not purely a Southern phenomenon.”

At the same time, he said, debate today may be stifled by civic leaders afraid of the fallout in Dayton.

“What you hear now is cities are kind of terrified about what a new Scopes trial is going do to their reputation,” Moran said. “They remember the original ended up besmirching the name of Dayton, Tennessee, and making it a synonym for bigotry and ignorance for the rest of the century.”

[johnnyb_61820]

Wow, someone actually telling the Scopes trial like it happened! Here's an interesting site debunking some myths on the trial (haven't read it all the way through, but it looks interesting), and if you want to know for yourself what happened, you can order the transcript.

[Borges]

One of the great ironies: William Jennings Bryan, the Prosecutor in the SMT, is one of the architects of the modern Democratic Party.

[RaceBannon]

The Truth about the Scopes Trial
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3969a47845ef.htm

Belief in Evolution made Hitler do what he did
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a387abb210180.htm

hysterical Darwinites panic
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1331041/posts

I am not a monkey's uncle.
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b6893026dc0.htm

Questions for Evolutionists
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ab777c8026b.htm

Rethinking the Geological Layers
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1094224/posts

Scientists pick holes in Darwinian Peppered Moth Theory
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b6ac79f6d40.htm

The origin of Information
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a39f692504171.htm

The Scientific Case Against Evolution: A Summary Part I
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3b5745ab3191.htm

The Truth about the Scopes Trial
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3969a47845ef.htm

WHY EVOLUTION IS WRONG
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3ae1db0976d0.htm

Why Evolution is WRONG!
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a37d00a8465b5.htm

[CatoRenasci]

Well, I actually read the transcript some years ago. I was not impressed with the prosecution.

[Moral Hazard]

“What’s happened in the last 40 years is creationism has become quite suburban, even quite well-educated and not purely a Southern phenomenon.”

There are "well-educated" people who believe in alien abductions, that magnets treat pain, that a chiropractor can cure allergies and that "psychics" can speak to the dead.

[KarlInOhio]

“Historians know better. They know he [Bryan]was very instrumental in getting direct election of senators,

Thanks a pantload. Direct election of Senators was a great blow to states' rights, federalism and limits on of the power of Washington. We repealed the 18th amendment. Let's repeal the 16th and 17th too.

[Moral Hazard]

So what's your theory on the origin of species, and what scientific evidence do you have to support it?

[PetroniusMaximus]

***There are "well-educated" people who believe in alien abductions, that magnets treat pain, that a chiropractor can cure allergies and that "psychics" can speak to the dead.***

Where did everything in this universe come from?

[protest1]

Some more good info about the Scopes trial can be found here.

Scopes Trial Questions and Answers

[Aloysius88]

"There are "well-educated" people who believe in alien abductions, that magnets treat pain, that a chiropractor can cure allergies and that "psychics" can speak to the dead."

In the interest of logic and rational debate you should avoid arguments like this one. Some a's believe b, some a's believe c, therefore all a's who believe b are fruitcakes too.

[Moral Hazard]

"Where did everything in this universe come from?"

Where did god come from?

[Moral Hazard]

" In the interest of logic and rational debate you should avoid arguments like this one."

I was just countering the original authors point. Just because some of the people who believe something are "well-educated" doesn't mean the thing they believe in is not absurd.

[kitkat]

***Here's an interesting site debunking some myths on the trial ***

One of the things I love about FR is that Freepers are so helpful with information. Thanks, johnnyb.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Where did god come from?***



So either, (and correct me if I am wrong), you believe that the universe "created" itself spontaniously out of nothing, (as opposed to the Theist who believes God created the universe out of nothing) - i.e. the Singularity "miracle".


Or...

You believe the universe (or multiverse) has eternally exited and is coutinuously self-re-creating. In which case the universe meets most of the definitions of "god" and your position is basically pantheism.


In either case I find it hard to understand why you believe your position is intellectually superior to the Theist kooks (who believe in UFOs and that sort of stuff...).


???

[Moral Hazard]

"You believe the universe (or multiverse) has eternally exited and is continuously self-re-creating. In which case the universe meets most of the definitions of "god" and your position is basically pantheism."

That sounds like an unusual definition of "god" to me. Certainly that's not consistent with the god of Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

Regardless my point was that religion doesn't solve the question of how the universe came to be, it just changes it to a question of how god came to be.

If you want to know what I believe, I believe the universe is approximately 13 billion years. That it was first defined at the big bang, and that before that there no time for there to be cause to which the universe was an effect. Going further back in time would be like going to the South Pole, and then going South.

I also believe that all possible universes exist with different probabilities of occurring, and that the effect of observation on the quantum state of particles reflects a resolution of which universe the observer is actually in.

I also believe that we are in a universe, location and time hospitable to the existence of intelligent life because of the entropic principle. In other words, if we weren't in a universe, location and time hospitable to intelligent life, we wouldn't be able to observe that fact.

Of course I could be wrong about any of those, but it reflects my understanding of the current state of scientific theory.

[PetroniusMaximus]

*** That sounds like an unusual definition of "god" to me***

It's Pantheism. "God" is the collection of everything that exists.




***Regardless my point was that religion doesn't solve the question of how the universe came to be, it just changes it to a question of how god came to be.***

Actually it really doesn't. God (as defined by the three monotheistic religions you listed) is not part of the universe and therefore not subject to it's laws and constraints.

Since God is "outside" the universe and we can't get "outside" just yet, then anything we could know of Him directly (rather than by implication) must come from Him. In other words, how would we know that God is eternal and not just really, really old?

We know He is eternal because he has communicated that to man and that record has been recorded. One example being...

"Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the whole earth.
He never grows faint or weary;
there is no limit to His understanding."

-Isaiah 40:28


The universe, by your chosen definition, hasn't eternally existed and therefore it is a logical question to ask where it came from.



***That it was first defined at the big bang, and that before that there no time for there to be cause to which the universe was an effect.****

Ah, the "Singularity"! The singularly miraculous event. So you do believe in miracles, just god-less ones! And you believe in them by faith, might I add, since no one was there to observe this event.



***I also believe that all possible universes exist with different probabilities of occurring,***

This kills me about "modern" science - all these metaphysical beliefs! These universes which you speculate are by definition "outside" our physical universe - therefore they are "meta(outside) - physical (the physical)". I thought metaphysical belief was for "kooks".


Now explain to me again how these beliefs add up to intellectual superiority?

[Moral Hazard]

So you haven't answered the question of where God came from, all you've done is say that we can't know. What is gained by this line of reasoning?

"Ah, the "Singularity"! The singularly miraculous event. So you do believe in miracles, just godless ones! And you believe in them by faith, might I add, since no one was there to observe this event."

The big bang theory originally came about based upon the work of Edwin Hubble which showed that the farther away a galaxy was from ours the faster it was moving away. Figuring out the existence of the big bang was a matter of working backwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

"This kills me about "modern" science - all these metaphysical beliefs! These universes which you speculate are by definition "outside" our physical universe - therefore they are "meta(outside) - physical (the physical)". I thought metaphysical belief was for "kooks"."

Without the "metaphysical beliefs" of quantum mechanics the processor that you're using to read this post could not have been made. The multiple universe theory is one of (though not the only) explanation for why quantum mechanics work.

Of course I'm sure the bible has some very detailed descriptions of how quantum mechanics works since it was written by God, not just a bunch of men. Oh, wait....