Posted on 07/12/2005 7:31:32 AM PDT by ppaul
Top 50 Most Influential Churches
The 2005 survey was sent to 2,000 church leaders with the goal of ranking the nation’s fastest growing churches and churches with more than 2,000 weekend attendance. The 127 churches nominated for the 50 Most Influential Churches survey were located in 32 states and represented 27 affiliation groups and/or denominations. The term affiliation is used to include networks of unaffiliated, independent churches.
(Excerpt) Read more at thechurchreport.com ...
I am familiar with several of the churches on this list.
Not one of them could even remotely be considered a "RECREATION-CENTER."
The ones with which I am familiar are doctrinally sound and preach the uncompromised Gospel of Christ.
Oh, and they offend sinners as a matter of course. Just like the Gospel is supposed to.
So the lack of a large building is a sign of greater spirituality?
My main beef with calvary chapels is that so many of them have domineering leadership. I don't think they're led of the Lord as much as they're led of whoever is senior pastor. That's only my assessment, but after many years of being in leadership with them, I had to get out and do my own thing.
No, it's a sign that your tithe is going out into the community instead of the Church leader's ego.
My main beef with calvary chapels is that so many of them have domineering leadership.
What do you want Church by commitee? Our Pastor is led by the Holy Spirit. Don't you expect leadership from the Senior Pastor?
Not an accurate statement of either the WCoF or the reformed doctrine.
The Calvinst view is that Christ is present is a spiritual, but not physical sense. Thus it is distinguished from the Catholic and Lutheran view of a real physical presence, but also from the Baptist view that the elements are merely symbolic.
The relevant portions of Chapter 29 of the WCofF:
V. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to Him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ; albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament,[13] do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
You're serious, right? Never been down to the "bible college" in Murrieta Hot Springs? The place is a hot springs resort, covering acres and acres of plush resort territory. Not that I have a problem with that sort of thing, because, I don't. But it just contradicts what you're saying about calvary chapels.
Ever been to the five star hotels that the pastors stay in when on trips overseas? I have. Ever been to the CASTLE in Austria (back when the European bible college was there)? I have. Haven't been to the new one in Hungary, but I'm sure it's just as exquisite in style and expense
What do you want Church by commitee? Our Pastor is led by the Holy Spirit. Don't you expect leadership from the Senior Pastor?
I expect leadership, not heavy shepherding, which is what I experienced over and over. If you're found a situation that is different, good :)
Scanning the list, I spotted a couple of United Methodists and a couple of PCUSA that I recognized without digging. And you can't get any more liberal than Glide.
I do question the methodology. They list Fellowship Bible in Plano, whose nationally known pastor retired a few years ago. They aren't even the most influential church in that city these days (that honor would go to Prestonwood Baptist). On a national scale, even the Episcopal church in Plano has more impact. They are the ones who organized the conservative conference of ECUSA leaders a few years ago.
txzman,
You wrote, "don't tout infant baptism as a crux of faith." Are you saying that those who tout infant baptism as a crux of faith are wrong and are scismatic, so to speak? I'm saying that those who deny infant baptism (and baptism in general as the way to be saved) are not to be considered Christian but scismatic. We can't both be right. If you are right then the Christian Church was wrong for about 1,600 years.
A couple of points: First, Saddleback is not a Southern Baptist church. While Rick Warren claims to be Southern Baptist, and he received his Divinity degree in a Southern Baptist Bible college, he denies that organization (except when he is among them!).
Secondly, "Purpose Driven Life" (and its predecessor, "Purpose Driven Church") have been divisive to many traditional congregations worldwide. When you say that book is "incredible", if you meant "NOT credible", then I agree 100% with you. It is full of scriptural error, not the least of requiring church leadership to sign covenants, in defiance of Jesus teaching otherwise.
LOL! Key the cheesy organ music. "Tall hair makes you closer to God!" ;)
One Sunday morning an old cowboy entered a church just before services were to begin. Although the old man and his clothes were spotlessly clean, he wore jeans, a denim shirt and boots that were very worn and ragged. In his hand he carried a worn out old hat and an equally worn out old bible. The church he entered was in a very upscale and exclusive part of the city. It was the largest and most beautiful church the old cowboy had ever seen. It had high cathedral ceilings, ornate statues, beautiful murals and stained glass windows, plush carpet, and velvet like cushioned pews. The building must have cost many millions of dollars to build and maintain. The men, women and children of the congregation were all dressed in the finest and most expensive suits, dresses, shoes, and jewelry the old cowboy had ever witnessed.
As the poorly dressed cowboy took a seat the others moved away from him. No one greeted him. No one welcomed him. No one offered a handshake. No one spoke to him. They were all appalled at his appearance and did not attempt to hide the fact. There were many glances in his direction as the others frowned and
commented among themselves about his shabby attire. A few chuckles and giggles came from some of the younger members.
The preacher gave a long sermon about Hellfire and brimstone and a stern lecture on how much money the church needed to do God's work. When the offering plate was passed thousands of dollars came pouring forth.
As soon as the service was over the congregation hurried out. Once again no one spoke or even nodded to the stranger in the ragged clothes and boots. As the old cowboy was leaving the church the preacher approached him. Instead of welcoming him, the preacher asked the cowboy to do him a favor. "Before you come back in
here again, have a talk with God and ask him what He thinks would be appropriate attire for worshiping in this church," the preacher said. The old cowboy assured the preacher he would do that and left.
The very next Sunday morning the old cowboy showed back up for the services wearing the same ragged jeans, shirt, boots, and hat. Once again the congregation was appalled at his appearance. He was completely shunned and ignored again. The preacher noticed the man still wearing his ragged clothes and boots, and instead of beginning his sermon, stepped down from the pulpit and walked over to where the man sat alone. "I thought I asked you to speak to God before you came back to our church," the preacher said.
"I did," replied the old cowboy.
"If you spoke to God, what did he tell you the proper attire should be for worshiping in here?" asked the preacher.
"Well sir", said the old cowboy, "God told me that He wouldn't have the slightest idea what was appropriate attire for worshiping in your church. He says He's never even been in here before."
Boy, this thread seems like a bunch of grumpy curmudgeons discussing what should be the brightest and most uplifting message out there . . . eternal salvation.
I don't believe in infant baptism. I guess loftyheights thinks I'm not good enough to be considered a "christian." Funny, I always thought it was the evangelical protestants who were accused of being anti-catholic, anti-this, anti-that. I've never thought that your stance on infant baptism was determinative as to whether you believed in Jesus as the savior.
I guess we'll do the heavy (but uplifting) task of bringing the message to those who don't know anything about Him . . . while loftyheights sits on a lofty perch telling us we're not doing it right. That sounds eerily reminiscent of John Kerry's Iraq policy. Maybe you two have more in common than just infant baptism dogma.
Do we have to schism? Can't we just get along and focus on the goal?
I can see a problem with this list right away. There is a definite bias against the "Frozen Chosen" in New England. You would think in this day and age whoever did the list would be more inclusive, after all we did the 40 Days of Purpose and doubled our attendance from 8 to 16. That should count for something.
They still allow churches in New England?
alas, for the most part you are correct.
Except John Piper's church. At least I think. I'm sure there are other exceptions, as well.
I think you should read Deceived on Purpose by Warren Smith.
Obviously. Large numbers are the first indicator of blessing, you know.
(cough cough)
I agree. Churches have become social clubs more than places where correct teaching and equipping of the saints takes place.
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