Afghan: Two missing US troops 'are dead'

If it happened that way, then I agree it was definitely a bad scene. I always hate to hear about losing these sorts of soldiers. Every soldier is an incalculable loss, but these guys are some of our best. Prayers up for the survivor, and all the families!

What's striking me as odd about the story so far is that the four man crew seems to have gotten widely scattered? No info on whether they were unusually beat up which brings some doubt into the notion of them running into a large tribe? The incident seems to be taking place around 10,000 ft which would indicate really difficult evasion if they stumbled into a beehive.
I'm trying to be patient waiting for details but this mission is taking on the sound of a Jimmy Carter/Iran/clusterflock.

What's striking me as odd about the story so far is that the four man crew seems to have gotten widely scattered? No info on whether they were unusually beat up which brings some doubt into the notion of them running into a large tribe? The incident seems to be taking place around 10,000 ft which would indicate really difficult evasion if they stumbled into a beehive. I'm trying to be patient waiting for details but this mission is taking on the sound of a Jimmy Carter/Iran/clusterflock.

Absolutely incorrect! On a number of accounts (and let's not rehash the American hostage rescue attempt in Iran - it was much closer to being a success then most people think)

You say "beat up"? What exactly are you inferring here? - The fact is their site was overrun by 100 + al Qeade / Taliban fighters - They were engaged and trying to E & E after this initial engagement took place -

"difficult evasion" you suggest - Without a doubt! Thus one of the reason for the Team breaking up - Another quite real possibility is one of the SEALs being wounded during the initial engagement and the others putting him in a hide site and then continuing away from him (drawing fire).

The fact is none of us know exactly what went down and none of us should be questioning any of their judgment! (we were not there!) - These are some of the most skilled warriors in the World, they know their craft inside and out.

To suggest this was any type of clusterfk is simply ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous at this time. The fact is that any of these warriors made it out alive is probably going to be a miracle when all the facts come out (if they do, and that is a big if - the general public still does not know all the facts behind the American hostage rescue attempt in 1980).

Let's continue to pray for the remaining missing SEAL - That we bring him out alive as well - I also hope we did not lose these two other SEALs within the past 24 to 36 hours (because we could not get to them in time).

An additional fact here is that if not for a lucky RPG shot (most likely) the QRF would have probably pulled these SEALs out and none of this entire story would be known.

These SEALs as well as our other U.S. SOF have thousands of successful missions that are never talked about, are never known about. No one should forget this. (or start questioning these same warriors every time a Op doesn't go perfectly).

You do indeed get my drift but I apparently didn't make my "cluster " concern clear. I have all the faith in the world in the guys on the ground---it's the rescue effort that's starting to sound "Carterish". Whoever ordered the rescue had to know whether the squad took fire. They had to know if their camp was on a cliff. They had to know something of the size of the tribe the squad spotted and they had to know, therefore, the 47's would take fire if they came in hi and proud. There's an odd reason we're getting so much press on this incident and I'm still waiting to figure out what that might be.

Totally disagree.....things happen , batteries in NVG's go bad, comm is lost, gear breaks, plan A , B and C goes to hell in a nano shake. Aside from the super human image folks have of these guys they are human in physical ability but mentally they are warriors...SEAL's. I have no idea what happened and if it saves lives of others I don't need to know. With operatinal security and classified need to know only after action reports comes ability to complete the next mission and the next.

I am happy to know these folks are badasses that can think on their feet undre fire. But they bleed. But understand this....we'll only get what the DOD wants the MSM to know...true or not. Prayers up for these guys , their family and friends .

Just my opinion......but publicity, good or bad, hurts the spec ops community.

The QRF didn't come in high and proud they came in ASAP - Why sans any big guns (Apache, AC-130's, etc) That could be open for debate however I am sure they SEALs on board that QRF didn't give a sh*t about nothing else then getting to their mates who were in desperate straights! And just get their ASAP (come hell or high-water).

The fact is a lucky RPG shot most likely took down the MH47 - Mr. Murphy showed up, that is it. There is no reason (or right, IMO) for others to start seconding guessing these warriors in the field on this Op.

Reason we are getting so much press is simple! - We've lost 10 of our elite warriors. This just doesn't happen that often. Plain and simple. Again, if not for the lucky RPG shot none of this would have become public - the QRF pulls those SEALs out -

but publicity, good or bad, hurts the spec ops community.

Exactly right - (and an additional fact is we usually only hear about when an Op goes bad, the other 99% are successful Ops).

These SEALs as well as our other U.S. SOF have thousands of successful missions that are never talked about, are never known about. No one should forget this. (or start questioning these same warriors every time a Op doesn't go perfectly).

I suspect it's just a matter of statistics. Conduct enough missions and something will eventually go badly wrong. My guess is that the SEAL team was spotted, perhaps long before they knew it.

We may not know for another 50+ years the full details of what happened and that's fine with me. That being said, I'm interested in knowing about the UAV that reportedly went down. Was it brought down. The reason I wonder about the UAV is because flying at ~20K feet would have put it only ~10K above the area and within range of a MANPAD if detected. Could a lookout on a 12K peak spot a Predator sized UAV at ~20K feet?

Damn.

Tuesday, 05 July 2005

U.S. Confirms Two Missing Soldiers Are Dead

5 July 2005 (RFE/RL) -- The U.S. military said in a statement today that two members of an American special-forces team missing in eastern Afghanistan for several days are dead.

The statement says the bodies of two members of a missing four-strong Navy SEAL team had been found during search operations on 4 July.

A third member of the team was earlier confirmed to be alive and well in a U.S. military hospital, while the fourth remained unaccounted for.

The statement says the team was part of a force conducting counterterrorism operations in Kunar Province.

A helicopter sent to reinforce that team on 28 June was shot down by what the military believed to be a rocket propelled grenade, killing all 16 navy SEAL commandos and army aviation specialists aboard.

In southern Afghanistan, two Turkish engineers were injured and their Afghan driver killed by Taliban militants on 5 July. Also in the south, suspected militants kidnapped and later killed two Afghan police officers.

In another development, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said today that he is "extremely saddened and distressed" by the death of 17 civilians in a U.S. air strike on 1 July.

(AFP/Reuters/CNN)

source

...Look at the series of events. ....

The frightening part is that the tactics seem to come from Iraq (the rumor is that Saddam made his troops to watch Black Hawks Down to get ideas of the american tactics and moral, ie. the crew will be rescued, etc..).
And longer the war stretching there, more terroists will get trained there and get spread all over the world to cause harm....
I guess the key is to finish the job fast in Iraq.

July 5, 2005
Release Number: 05-07-02C

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

TWO U.S. SERVICE MEMBERS KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN

KABUL, Afghanistan – Coalition forces located the bodies of two U.S. service members during a combat search and rescue operation July 4 in Kunar province.

The service members’ whereabouts had been unknown since June 28. They were part of a force conducting counter-terrorism operations in Kunar. An MH-47 helicopter carrying troops to support the force crashed June 28.

The two service members were taken to the U.S. military hospital at Bagram Airfield where they were pronounced dead. Their names are being withheld until notification of their next-of-kin.

Another member of the force was located and airlifted to the Bagram hospital with non-life-threatening injuries.

The whereabouts of one service member remains unknown.

http://www.centcom.mil/CENTCOMNews/Casualty_Report.asp?CasualtyReport=20050702.txt

Ditto to DevSix. Another interesting thing is now that we have say 100+ soldiers in the area the Taliban/Al Quida have seemed to have moved out of the area. Looks like things are a little to hot for them.

It is really hard to believe that chopper was hit by an actual RPG round. In Somalia Black hawks operated incredibly close to the ground. QRF chopper would have been 100 times harder target.

Those guys had years to learn how to attack choppers during war vs ussr. Stinger vs Mi24 was a much easier shot, but with enough launchers and lucky/good shooter positions (shooting from above the helicopter etc) also statistics comes in. How many times they tried and failed we don't know, now one got lucky.

Israel in many cases released details of their ops through unofficial channels. People know exactly why and how Green Island was assaulted, which operator was decorated for what, how they were wounded etc. Successful high profile operations should be known to both friends and to the enemies. For example those record sniper shots made by Marine and Canadian snipers in Afghanistan, propaganda value of such things is hard to overestimate. Did you see "Enemy at the Gates", its from a novel, but Zaitsev was a real person and his kill list was published for all to see and to inspire others.

Prayers up for all forces. Godspeed all.

I'm trying to be patient waiting for details but this mission is taking on the sound of a Jimmy Carter/Iran/clusterflock.

I think maybe your're assuming facts not yet in evidence. I would submit that perhaps there is more to the story than has yet been released. I'm just sayin'.

Great post. Thanks.

Just for drill let me restate the facts that seem to be present: Heavy chopper (47) lost w/crew, two SEALs KIA, one SEAL injured, there WERE two firefights, one firefight took place around 10,000 ft elevation.----and that's all I know about the events.

But I know some other stuff and I get close to BEEzerk mulling on it:
47's are not nimble and are no good for prowling around hot zones, especially before unloading. Failing to clear an LZ would be foolish and using a loaded 47 for search is down there too. A map check shows there is a whole lot of country higher than 10,000 ft in the neighborhood and I thot we learned a long time ago that we HAD to control the high ground. Gen. Patton just kicked a slat out of his box. Cover fire had to be available and I'm gonna wait for the explanation as to why it wasn't used. SOP teams wouldn't have been up there w/o suspicion there was another unfriendly crowd. I tend to think aggressor and in that mode would have loved to keep the SEALs downhill especially if I could get a cheap downwind shot at a chopper. And that's just part of why I get the faint odor of Carter SNAFU in this case