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Smokers Right Meeting In Chicago ~ Very Important
Email Alert | 7-3-05 | Ralph Conner

Posted on 07/03/2005 8:21:20 PM PDT by SheLion

Subject: Midwest regional director attends Third Tobacco Summit, July 11, 2005 in Chicago

> Dear Dawn: Please note the data about the event below has been e-mailed to
> the Smokers Club and Forces Illinois. We would appreciate your attendance in
> order to continue the fight for individual freedom of choice. We expect a
> great program as you can see, with plans for coordinated followup actions to
> proceed after this confab.As Chicago, today, actually considers a smoking
> ban in the City Council, we know that there is a need to circle the wagons
> for liberty to protect the inalienable rights of tobacco users.Could you
> provide another general notice to your membership.Call me if you have any
> questions or suggestions on how we can maximize attendance for this event.
> Thanks. RWC
> Ralph W. Conner
> Public Affairs Director
> The Heartland Institue
> 19 South LaSalle Street #903
> Chicago, IL 60603
> phone 312/377-4000
> fax 312/377-5000
>
>
http://www.heartland.org
>
>
> On Monday, July 11, 2005, The Heartland Institute, Chicagoland Chamber of
> Commerce, and Midwest Public Affairs Group are cohosting a meeting in
> downtown Chicago to discuss why business and civic leaders should oppose
> recent tax and legal actions against smokers and what can be done about it.
> I'm writing to ask you to attend.
>
> Following are the details:
>
> Who: The cohosts are Joseph Bast, The Heartland Institute; Scott McPherson,
> Midwest Public Affairs Group; and Rob Nash, Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce.
> Approximately 100 civic and business leaders are being invited.
>
> What: Brief presentations on why taxpayers, policymakers, and anyone
> concerned by mandates on business and the erosion of private property rights
> and the Rule of Law should speak out on this issue, followed by discussion
> of action items and plans for an ongoing campaign.
>
> When: Monday, July 11, from 11:00 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.

>
> Where: Chicagoland Chamber conference room, 330 North Wabash #2800, Chicago.
>
> Why: To create a stronger alliance of groups and individuals willing to
> write letters and op-eds, make phone calls, debate anti-smoking activists,
> and otherwise get actively involved in the public debate over tobacco
> policy.
>
> Agenda: A one-page agenda for the meeting is attached in PDF.
>
> RSVP: Call Zwahy'yah McElrath at 312/377-4000 or send email to
>
mcelrath@heartland.org to confirm your intention to attend.
>
>
> Attendance is free. A buffet lunch will be served. Several experts will be
> on hand to discuss the tax, health, and legal aspects of smoking and smoking
> bans.

>
>
> Among the activities we hope to encourage and support are:
>
> * write letters to the editors and op-eds;
> * write letters to elected officials;
> * make phone calls to elected officials and reporters;
> * get on talk radio discussing the issue;
> * conduct background research to share with others;
> * post comments, research, and links on Web sites or blogs;
> * host events and attend events with experts on the subject;
> * attend and/or testify at city, county, and state hearings; and
> * distribute leaflets or flyers on college campuses, at hearings, in public
> places, etc.
>
> As public affairs director for The Heartland Institute, I will be on hand to
> discuss how he will help support activities in the following ways:
>
> * help submit op-eds electronically to media outlets in Illinois and
> nationally;
> * track media hits using our clipping service and report back to the
> writers;
> * post essays on our Web site and add to PolicyBot, our online
> database/search engine;
> * publish essays in Budget & Tax News, Environment & Climate News, and
> elsewhere;
> * help bring in speakers from out of town, such as Jacob Sullum and Michael
> Fumento; and
> * post a calendar of events on Heartland's Web site as part of the "Smokers'
> Lounge."
>
> If you have advice or suggestions, or if you want to invite other people to
> attend, please contact me or one of the other cosponsors. We hope to see you
> on Monday, July 11. --RWC
>
>
> AGENDA BELOW:
>
> Welcome to the
> Third Tobacco Summit!
>
> Monday, July 11, 2005
>
> Robert Nash
> Chicagoland. Chamber of Commerce
>
> Scott McPherson
> Midwest Public Affairs Group
>
> Joseph Bast
> The Heartland Institute
>
>
> Schedule:
>
> 11:00 - 11:15 Welcome and Opening Remarks
> Scott McPherson and Joseph Bast
>
> 11:15 - 11:30 Feedback & Preliminary Discussion
>
> 11:30 - 11:45 Smoking Bans / Issues of Property Rights
> Maureen Martin, The Heartland Institute
>
>
> 11:45 - 12:00 Lunch (Self-service sandwiches, chips, cookies, and
> beverages)
>
>
> 12:00 - 12:15 How Evanston Beat The Ban
> Jonathan Perman, Evanston Chamber of Commerce
>
> 12:15 - 12:30 Feedback & Discussion of Strategy
>
> 12:30 - 12:45 TBA (Illinois Restaurant Association)
>
>   12:45 - 1:00 Feedback & Discussion of Tactics
>
>    1:00  - 1:30 Discussion of Next Steps


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; US: Illinois
KEYWORDS: anti; bans; butts; chica; cigarettes; fda; individual; liberty; meeting; niconazis; regulation; rinos; senate; smokers; smoking; taxes; tobacco
Everyone, please read the following! I also plan to post it on the Illinois Smokers Rights site. If you should be able to attend this very important meeting, please contact Samantha or me."

Contact Samatha
 

1 posted on 07/03/2005 8:21:22 PM PDT by SheLion
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To: Just another Joe; Madame Dufarge; MeeknMing; steve50; Cantiloper; metesky; kattracks; ...
CHICAGO SMOKER PING!!!!  IMPORTANT!!!
2 posted on 07/03/2005 8:22:32 PM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: All

3 posted on 07/03/2005 8:25:11 PM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: SheLion; All

Another tip I use myself:

1. Buy some inkjet printer card stock.
2. Print the names of all elected officials who support tobacco tax increases/smoking bans on the front of these cards.
3. Print a suggestion to not vote for these people on the backs of these cards.
4. Hand these cards out to anyone who asks you for a cigarette.


4 posted on 07/03/2005 8:29:29 PM PDT by RandallFlagg (Roll your own cigarettes! You'll save $$$ and smoke less!(Magnetic bumper stickers-click my name)
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To: RandallFlagg

Great ideas Randall!!!


5 posted on 07/03/2005 8:34:54 PM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: SheLion
QUALITIES OF LIFE: HEALTH

Lighting a fire

A renowned whistle-blower hits town to create potent little weapons against
Big Tobacco

By William Hageman
Tribune staff reporter

July 3, 2005

Like Mayor Richard M. Daley doesn't have enough to worry about.

His desk soon could be cluttered with letters from students at Pablo Casals
Elementary School, at Potomac and St. Louis Avenues on the North Side.

They're not concerned with hired trucks, missing asphalt or shenanigans in
the city Water Department . What's bothering them is that the mayor hasn't
helped make Chicago a smoke-free city by pushing to ban indoor smoking in
public places such as bars and restaurants.
And their letters are going to
ask him why.

The man who got the kids to pester the mayor is Jeffrey Wigand. He's the
former tobacco company executive who blew the whistle on the industry 10
years ago and detailed the inner workings of cigarette companies. (His
story was told in the film "The Insider," with Russell Crowe portraying
Wigand.) These days he heads Smoke-Free Kids, a non-profit organization he
founded to warn young people about the dangers of smoking.

His talk at Casals, one of 180 or so such presentations he makes each year,
was to about 120 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. His mission that day, he told
the students at the outset, was simple:

`Save some lives'

"I want you guys to help me save some lives. Maybe your life. Maybe your
child's life. Maybe a friend's life."

The average age for a first-time smoker in this country is 12 to 13, Wigand
explained before the talk, making this a perfect audience. The idea for
Smoke-Free Kids, he said, is that "by getting to them before they pick up
their first tobacco product, you'll give them the enabling knowledge that
they can make a better, more critical decision rather than be manipulated
or duped by peer pressure or the advertising promotion."

In the program, which lasted a little more than an hour, Wigand went after
Big Tobacco for its decades-long tactic of misleading people and Congress
about the health dangers of smoking ("no more dangerous than Twinkies").
The machinations continue today, he said, as the industry fights efforts to
eliminate smoking in public places.

And that's a topic that is especially relevant in Chicago, as Wigand told
the students. The city is No. 1 in the nation in the incidence of asthma,
and there are several communities where more than a third of the adults
smoke, well above the national average of 23 percent. All those smokers
mean secondhand smoke--and health concerns--for everyone.

"This is the only [consumer] product in the world today that when it's used
as intended, it kills," Wigand said of cigarettes. "And not only the user
but bystanders as well."

He asked the students how many of them had seen smoke in restaurants, even
wafting into the non-smoking section. Almost every hand shot up. Then he
told them that Chicago has no law against it, while other countries--he
named Ireland, Norway and Cuba--and cities such as New York and Lexington,
Ky. ("in the heart of the tobacco belt"), have successfully gone smoke free.

"We need to convince the elected officials in the City of Chicago to do the
same thing.

"Not one country, not one city, not one state, not one little town has lost
any business [by going smoke free]. Why? Because 70 percent of the people
don't want people to smoke."

Wigand's visit is just part of Smoke-Free Kids' strategy. Teachers pick up
the ball with classroom education.

"The industry nurtures the belief and forces the belief that a cigarette is
a natural product, just like a foodstuff," Wigand said. "Well, the kids get
to bring in their types of food from home, and they bring them in and we
take some cigarettes and we do a bacterial culture on it. And the food they
get at home doesn't grow bacteria. Yet when they culture cigarette tobacco,
they get all sorts of bacteria. . . . And that's an eye-opener to them."

The students were asked to take the lessons of the day, and of earlier
classroom sessions, and pass them on to their families and friends. Wigand
also asked them each to write a short essay about what they learned. And,
of course, crank out those letters to City Hall.

"I want you to write to Mayor Daley and ask him, `Why are you not helping
us save lives?'"

When he finished, he took questions.

Good question

Why do people smoke if they know they're going to get sick? they wanted to
know. Why do the tobacco companies want to get kids to smoke? Do cigarettes
hurt any part of the body besides the lungs?

By the time the Q&A session had ended, it appeared Wigand had gotten his
message across.

"I learned not to smoke," said Jalynn Vazquez, a 4th grader. "Your lungs
could be destroyed and you could die. Smoking is very bad for you."

"I think this was wonderful," added Crystal Taylor, another 4th grader.
"And I learned that maybe I can save my father's life. He's a smoker and I
love him very much."

And when Wigand asked how many students would write those letters, almost
every hand went up again.

Mr. Mayor, watch your mailbox.

For more information on Smoke-Free Kids, go to www.jeffreywigand.com.
ry

No way at we affiliated with  Big Tobacco..................but..................

6 posted on 07/03/2005 8:45:18 PM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: SheLion

(His
story was told in the film "The Insider," with Russell Crowe portraying
Wigand.)




And Crowe is a traitor , as he is a smoker-who, from stories I've read, routinely ignores & defies-smoker bans.


7 posted on 07/03/2005 9:55:34 PM PDT by The Foolkiller ( Why......That sounds.....FOOLish!)
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To: SheLion
His talk at Casals, one of 180 or so such presentations he makes each year, was to about 120 3rd, 4th and 5th graders. His mission that day, he told the students at the outset, was simple:
As this busybody is doing quite a bit more than encouraging kids not to smoke, will the tax-supported school allow a complementary speaker to lecture on the value of minding one's own business?

-Eric

8 posted on 07/03/2005 9:59:34 PM PDT by E Rocc (If God is watching us, we can at least try to be entertaining)
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To: SheLion

I'm not a smoker, but these Smoking Nazis get on my last nerve. Get a life and leave everyone else alone...k.


9 posted on 07/03/2005 11:08:30 PM PDT by Surtur (Wal-mart...walnuts, Oprah...Uma, coincidence, I think not.)
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To: SheLion

This has nothing to do with this particular thread, but-I thought some of you might be interested in this article from J.R. Block's rag on the Toledo smoking issue. You'll notice the headline is "Toledo smoking issue subsides"-oh? But...if that's the case...why was this news anyway, let alone ON THE FRONT PAGE?? Simple...because the paper keeps fanning the glowing embers, and won't let it go away. Warning: this is a loooonnng article-but it's VERY informative!! On the entire state issue, too.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050703/NEWS08/507030356


10 posted on 07/04/2005 12:43:31 AM PDT by The Foolkiller ( Why......That sounds.....FOOLish!)
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To: Surtur

I'm not a smoker, but these Smoking Nazis get on my last nerve. Get a life and leave everyone else alone...k.

It's a mess, isn't it!  Even the non-smoker's are seeing what is going on here with the war on the smokers.

We don't have it easy, believe me.

We are the scourge of the earth, yet we all know that pedophiles, rapist, drug uses and drunk drivers are 100 times worse.  Yet, the smokers are being pounded on.

I'm sick of it!


11 posted on 07/04/2005 4:50:19 AM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: SheLion
The whole deal in regards to smoking regulations isn't about health as The Powers That Be would have us believe; it is about CONTROL, no more and certainly no less. I for one on't want any government deciding what I can or can't do in my life. If I wish to take a risk, then it is my perogative to do so. Unfortunately, the Legalized betting/gaming known as the Insurance Industry has too many inroads amongst the lawmakers of this nation, and they are doing everything they can to skew the results of all insurance claims in favor of the house. If casinos ran their gaming the way the Insurance Industry does its actuarial tables, they would be shut down for cheating.
12 posted on 07/04/2005 7:05:17 AM PDT by Surtur (Wal-mart...walnuts, Oprah...Uma, coincidence, I think not.)
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To: Surtur
The whole deal in regards to smoking regulations isn't about health as The Powers That Be would have us believe; it is about CONTROL, no more and certainly no less. I for one on't want any government deciding what I can or can't do in my life. If I wish to take a risk, then it is my perogative to do so. Unfortunately, the Legalized betting/gaming known as the Insurance Industry has too many inroads amongst the lawmakers of this nation, and they are doing everything they can to skew the results of all insurance claims in favor of the house. If casinos ran their gaming the way the Insurance Industry does its actuarial tables, they would be shut down for cheating.

I just don't know what we can do! :( We coalitions for Smokers Rights are working very hard to counteract all the lies the anti's spew.  But is hard to turn around the thinking of the non-smoking general public!!!

We can scream and holler all we want, but the Tobacco Settlement Agreement has created such a monster that I don't think smokers will ever get out from under!

Big Tobacco and the Attorney Generals reached an agreement back in 1998, and of course, Big Tobacco doesn't have to pay AND the states do not have to pay.  It's the poor smoker that got screwed.  BIG time.

With all the billions flowing into the states (from the smokers tax dollars), from the MSA, the Boards of Health created coalitions called "Partnership for a Smoke Free Everything."  Instead of spending that money for any sick smoker should there be any, or for education.. they stated a crusade to ban smoking in every private business in the state.

Partnership for a Smoke Free Maine succeeded in their endeavor.  First, they started with all restaurants.  Then, in January of this year, they forced all bars, taverns, sports inns and night clubs to go smoke free.  Did these businesses lose money?  You bet they did.  And some of them even had to close.

Since there are only 25-30% of the people in each state smoke, we lose polls and elections every time, because the general public do not know the facts and they think they are doing a good thing. If only they knew!

I just pray that that the place of business that THEY love to go to has closed.  Then, and only then, will the general non smoking public realize that they did wrong with their no smoking vote. 

But, but then, it has become too late.

 


13 posted on 07/04/2005 8:43:07 AM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: All

Mayor Richard M. Daley
Chicago Tribune - Gary Washburn, John McCormick, Tonya Maxwell - Staff Reporters
Chicago Tribune - George de Lama, Deputy Managing Editor
Chicago Tribune - James O'Shea, Managing Editor
Chicago Tribune - Ann Marie Lipinski, Editor
Forces.org
Smokers Club, Inc.

RE: Aldermen act to ban smoking; Proposal would make restaurants, bars smoke-free - Chicago, IL

To All Whom It May Concern:

Chicago, Illinois does not need to jump onto a bandwagon to follow other cities and states with smoking bans. Smoking bans are an invasion of our fifth amendment and are contrary to the basic principals of our Constitution. THIS IS NOT ABOUT HEALTH OR PROFIT MARGINS. This is about our "Right to Property", which is one of the basic principals upon which our Democratic Republic of the United States of America was based. The federal, state and local governments should not be (and should have never been) allowed to make us forfeit this very important human right.

Citizens are entitled to private property when they earn it...that means private businesses too! It is not the purpose of our government to pass ordinances to take this right away. Smoking bans are NOT about health. They are about removing basic rights, greed and power obsession promoted by extremist "health" interest groups.

Our constitution, (a work still in progress) forged by the very astute men who created it, purposely did not itemize our rights but intentionally left these basic rights to be "self evident". Our government was not created to "ordinance" citizens into bureaucratic slavery, but only to prevent anarchy and to protect us....but not from one another. Free trade made this country. Leave it that way!

Carol Schwartz - Washington, D.C. Councilwoman: "It had just never occurred to me that I could simply choose to ban a legal choice for consenting adults in a private place where the public does not have to go, and where workers do not have to work......and then just do it"
______________________________
Garnet Dawn - The Smoker's Club, Inc. - Midwest Regional Director
The United Pro Choice Smokers Rights Newsletter - http://www.smokersclubinc.com
Illinois Smokers Rights - http://www.illinoissmokersrights.com/
mailto:garnetdawn@comcast.net - Respect Freedom of Choice!





http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0506300269jun30,1,1785528.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

Aldermen act to ban smoking
Proposal would make restaurants, bars smoke-free

By Gary Washburn and John McCormick, Tribune staff reporters. Tribune staff reporter Tonya Maxwell contributed to this report
Published June 30, 2005


Buoyed by successes in other cities, anti-tobacco aldermen on Wednesday introduced a sweeping new measure that would ban smoking inside most public places in Chicago, from bars to bingo halls and limos to train platforms.

The Chicago proposal, which would be among the most stringent anywhere in the country, was greeted by immediate opposition from the hospitality industry and a wait-and-see attitude from Mayor Richard Daley.

"It is about time we passed a measure that will stop second-hand smoke from killing people," said Ald. Ed Smith (28th), chairman of the City Council's Health Committee and lead sponsor of the ordinance.

The only exemptions spelled out in the measure are private homes, hotels and motels and retail tobacco stores, providing customers don't blow smoke too far.

In 1988 the City Council prohibited smoking in many indoor public places. But it permitted creation of designated smoking areas in buildings, including restaurants, and left bars untouched.

Attempts to tighten the prohibitions over the years have failed to win council approval, including a broad ban, similar to Wednesday's measure, that was proposed by Ald. Edward Burke in 2002.

But the anti-smoking scene has been changing since those attempts, with cities and some states around the country approving bans in public places.

Seven states, including California, Massachusetts and New York, ban smoking in bars and restaurants, according to the California-based American Nonsmokers' Rights Foundation. The group says more than 1,900 municipalities have local laws that restrict in some way where smoking is allowed.

"The landscape has changed, and people think [a stringent ban] is much more possible," said Carolyn Grisko, a spokeswoman for the Illinois Division of the American Cancer Society. "They say that if New York, Boston and Los Angeles can do this--and people are still eating in restaurants and [patronizing] bars--there is absolutely no reason Chicago should be behind the curve."

Starting on Friday, smokers in Georgia won't be able to light up in diners, restaurants and other businesses affected by that state's ban on smoking in public places. Smoking will be prohibited in most public places, working areas and eating establishments, although bars and restaurants may designate separate "private" smoking rooms with independent ventilation systems.

Also on Friday, a smoking prohibition for all bars goes into effect in Madison, Wis., an expansion of the current law that bans smoking in most public places.

A ban on smoking in District of Columbia bars and restaurants is being debated, with a vote expected as early as next week. Council members there are discussing whether to exempt cigar bars, retail tobacco stores and rooftop bars and restaurants.

The debate over smoking bans has been heated in several Chicago suburbs in recent years. In Evanston, Skokie, Wilmette and Highland Park, some forms of public smoking have already been restricted.

With the Hubbard and State Cigar shop's glowing neon sign behind them, a shifting crowd of men puffed on after-work stogies Wednesday, agreeing that a Chicago ban wouldn't--and shouldn't--pass.

"The idea that they can just go ahead and ban smoking through some ... edict, it's almost draconian," said Khurram Tahir, as he enjoyed a Rocky Patel.

Tahir lived in Boston when that city passed its smoking ban in 2003, and his favorite cigar shop lost a third of its revenue when it could no longer supply bars and restaurants, he said.

But at the Billy Goat Tavern beneath Michigan Avenue, Gerald Luth of Lexington, N.C., said he's tired of walking into restaurants and coming out with the smell of smoke clinging to his clothes.

"When you go to the restroom, where do you always have to go to get to it?" Luth asked. "Through the smoking section."

Putting new political pressure on Daley and the City Council for passage of the new proposal is the Coalition for a Smoke-Free Chicago, an amalgam of 242 organizations, institutions, businesses, churches and schools.

The effort is being spearheaded by the cancer society, which thinks targeting second-hand smoke is a key to reducing lung cancer, Grisko said. The group has committed $1.5 million to the effort.

Cancer society representatives have met with aldermen individually to push for the ordinance, and volunteers are contacting their local council representatives, she said.

Meanwhile, billboards are scheduled to go up next week, radio advertisements have begun to air and television ads are planned.

One radio spot features a woman with advanced throat cancer whose doctors have told her that her illness was attributable to smoke in the workplace. Another highlights the story of a musician with health problems who cannot work in clubs because of the tobacco smoke.

"Very seldom do we have a chance to pass a law that clearly saves lives," said Ald. Toni Preckwinkle (4th), a supporter. "There is a direct correlation between second-hand smoke and cancer."

But Ald. William Beavers (7th), a smoker, believes the effort will fall short.

"I don't think this is going to have the support necessary to pass," he said. Beavers asked reporters to picture customers of Rush Street restaurants and bars "standing outside smoking because they can't smoke inside."

Daley, whose blessing is seen as critical, has in the past stood by the hospitality and tourism industries. On Wednesday he said that loss of tourists "is a concern," and asserted that some bars that are part of restaurants have spent money on ventilation systems "and have done everything ... we told them to put in."

But "that doesn't mean I am for it or against it," Daley said. "Let's have a hearing and look at it."

Restaurant owners in California said their business has not been affected by a 1995 statewide ban on smoking in enclosed workplaces, including restaurants and bars.

"In the first three months, it cut business down. But after a year, it really made no difference," said Monique Ianos, the marketing director of the Pig 'n Whistle restaurant on Hollywood Boulevard in Hollywood, Calif. "And it's nice to go home and not smell like a cigarette."

But Colleen McShane, president of the Illinois Restaurant Association, said Jack's Restaurant in Skokie lost about $100,000 in revenue after restaurants in the northern suburb were required to go smoke-free about a year ago.

The 24-hour Jack's "lost the late-night crowd," she said. "They had to lay off a shift and close early."

"All the restaurateurs want to do is cater to the needs of their customers," McShane said. "It's about the right to cater to your customers who choose to smoke or not to smoke. [Tobacco] is a legal product."

Business groups, including the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce, plan a July 11 meeting for business and civic leaders to discuss what they believe are the negative economic and constitutional impacts of anti-tobacco legislation.

- - -

Lights out, please

Select U.S. cities where smoking is banned in restaurants, bars and workplaces:

Bloomington, Ind.
Boston
Columbus, Ohio

El Paso, Texas
Eugene, Ore.
Highland Park
Helena, Mont.
Lawrence, Kan.
Lincoln, Neb.
New York
San Jose, Calif.
Wilmette

Note: Many other places have similar or less comprehensive bans.

Source: American Nonsmokers' Rights Foundation




gwashburn@tribune.com

mccormickj@tribune.com


14 posted on 07/04/2005 2:18:04 PM PDT by SheLion (Donate to Free Republic! Help keep our forum free!!!)
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To: SheLion
Source: American Nonsmokers' Rights Foundation

Glantz''s baby - being funded by taxpayer money..........but just smokers' tax money.

15 posted on 07/04/2005 7:52:15 PM PDT by Gabz (My give-a-damn is busted.)
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