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I love the smell of idiocy in the morning.
Posted on 07/01/2005 7:10:20 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
Astronomers using the National Science Foundation's giant Robert C. Byrd Green Bank Telescope (GBT) have discovered a frigid reservoir of simple sugar molecules in a cloud of gas and dust some 26,000 light-years away, near the center of our Milky Way Galaxy. The discovery suggests how the molecular building blocks necessary for the creation of life could first form in interstellar space.
The astronomers detected the 8-atom sugar molecule glycolaldehyde in a gas-and-dust cloud called Sagittarius B2. Such clouds, often many light-years across, are the raw material from which new stars and planets are formed. The astronomers detected the same molecule in a warmer part of that cloud in 2000 [link in original article], but the new detection shows that the sugar exists at an extremely low temperature -- only 8 degrees above absolute zero, the temperature at which all molecular motion stops. The cold glycolaldehyde detections were surprisingly strong when compared to the original detections and indicate that a considerable quantity of this simple interstellar sugar exists at extremely low temperatures.
Glycoaldehyde is composed of 2 carbon atoms, 2 oxygen atoms and 4 hydrogen atoms and is called a 2-carbon sugar. Glycolaldehyde can react with a 3-carbon sugar to produce a 5-carbon sugar called ribose. Ribose molecules form the backbone structure of the molecules DNA and RNA, which carry the genetic code of living organisms.
On Earth, most chemical reactions occur in liquid water. Conditions are quite different in interstellar space, and most of the complex molecules appear to form on or under the surfaces of tiny dust grains. In this scenario, smaller molecules such as water, formaldehyde, methane, ammonia, carbon dioxide, or methanol, coat the surfaces and interiors of dust grains in the clouds. When a shock wave, caused by the infall or outflow of material in the star-formation process, hits the dust grains, it provides the energy to assemble more-complex molecules from the simpler ones, and also to free the newly-formed molecules from the dust grains. Once the shock has passed, the molecules cool into a cold, thin gas.
Although the chemistry on Earth and in interstellar clouds is much different, the results can be very similar. This and other recent studies show that prebiotic chemistry -- the formation of the molecular building blocks necessary for the creation of life -- occurs in interstellar clouds long before that cloud collapses to form a new solar system with planets. "Many of the interstellar molecules discovered to date are the same kinds detected in laboratory experiments specifically designed to synthesize prebiotic molecules. This fact suggests a universal prebiotic chemistry," said Jan M. Hollis of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, MD. This suggests that the molecular building blocks for the creation of life on a new planet might get a head start in the dust of interstellar clouds.
The actual formation of a planetary system is such a hot process that any prebiotic molecules would likely be destroyed. However, this study has shown that such molecules may form in very cold regions following the passage of a shock wave. Such conditions might be typical of the outer regions of a young solar system following the star-formation process. A repository of prebiotic molecules might exist in these outer regions, which is also where comets are formed, the scientists said. It has long been suggested that a collision with a comet or an encounter with the passing tail of a comet might "seed" a young planet with prebiotic material.
Hollis worked with Philip Jewell of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, WV, Frank Lovas of the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg, MD, and Anthony Remijan of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. The scientists reported their findings in the September 20 issue of the Astrophysical Journal Letters.
The discovery of the cold glycolaldehyde was made by detecting faint radio emission from the molecules. Molecules rotate end-for-end. When they change from a higher rotational energy level to a lower energy level, they emit radio waves at precise frequencies. Conversely, they can absorb radio waves at specific frequencies and change from a lower rotational energy level to a higher one. A set of frequencies emitted or absorbed by a particular molecule forms a unique "fingerprint" identifying that molecule. The cold glycolaldehyde was identified both by emission from the molecules and by absorption of radio waves emitted by a background source, all between 13 GHz and 22 GHz in frequency.
"The large diameter and great precision of the GBT made this discovery possible, and also holds the promise of discovering additional new complex interstellar molecules," Jewell said. The GBT, dedicated in 2000, is the world's largest fully- steerable radio-telescope antenna. Its dish reflector has more than 2 acres of signal-collecting area.
The National Radio Astronomy Observatory is a facility of the National Science Foundation, operated under cooperative agreement by Associated Universities, Inc.
Speaking of bottom feeders, did you see the catfish caught in Thailand recently? It was 3m long and weighed over 400kg. I swear I saw it carrying a Bible in its left fin.
The only group I've seen that consistently cites primary or secondary research is the pro evolution bunch. All we see from the rabid creationists are interminable lists of passages from the Bible, as if the Bible can be held as an authority on science.
I was out on a business trip.
And I don't cry foul, it supports what I stated years ago, that the chemicals that might be necessary have a better chance of forming in the coldness of space than here on Earth. Even the chirality problem gets a head start there. That being said, the chance of abiotic creation of life still remain practically ZERO. And you can't get a simpler sugar than glycolaldehyde.
I hope the trip was fruitful. Welcome back.
Your claim that the chemicals have a better chance of forming in space has not been verified by this discovery. That they have formed in space doesn't mean the probability of forming on earth is less, equal to, or more likely than in space. It simply means that the likelihood of those molecules forming without a non-naturalistic influence is 1. Until we determine the conditions those molecules need to form and the conditions available on the pre-biotic earth, we can not rule out their formation on earth. In fact, each time we find similarly useful molecules in space, it increases the probability of those same molecules appearing on earth, either as an independent formation or as an arrival from space.
Practically zero is not zero.
All the calculations I 've seen that produce probabilities for the initiation of life use unrealistic initial assumptions.
Why the hell are you even on this forum? To make fun of the people who post and get a sense of smug superiority? Why don't you go to a website that is actually about evolution, instead of screwing around here?
No but this does....Interstellar Space A Likely Source of Organic Molecules
At NASA-Ames, Allamandola, Sandford, Bernstein, and Dworkin use cryogenically cooled vacuum chambers and UV lamps in their laboratory to form and irradiate interstellar ice analogs under conditions that simulate those found in dense interstellar clouds. "Basically, we freeze mixed gases onto an extremely cold window and then give the ices the equivalent of a good suntanning," says Allamandola. "After the sample is warmed up, we can remove any remaining organic materials from the sample chamber and study them using a variety of analytical techniques," he continued.
One of these is the technique of two step laser-desorption laser-ionization mass spectrometry. "That's quite a mouthful," says Stanford graduate student Elsila, "but essentially this is an analytical technique that allows us to measure the masses of the various compounds in the organic residue that results from the ice irradiation." "The surprise," says Zare, leader of the Stanford group, "is just how complex the population of organics is. Generally we see a peak at virtually every mass up to and beyond 500 atomic mass units!" This means that the residue must contain hundreds of distinctly different molecules, the vast majority of them being considerably larger than the molecules that made up the original ice.
The probabilities can't be zero because the compounds of life do exist. They exist where life is. Somehow I don't think your numbers are "realistic" at all. We do know at the moment that life comes from life. We have never observed life to arise from non-life solely. Now what did you say about reality?
He likes the company? b_sharp is actually one of the ... err ... sharpest people on this forum.
And you have a problem with him because?
The discovery...was made by detecting faint radio emissions from the molecules.
From 26,000 light-years away???
Opinion stated as fact. There is no way to know what the chances are, our knowledge is too limited.
Try a google search on "light-years definition".
Perhaps you are missing the point. If the fundamental building blocks form in space, they don't need to be formed on earth--the intersteller pizza man can deliver them at the doorstep.
No.
"Why don't you go to a website that is actually about evolution, instead of screwing around here?
I do.
I believe that Andrew and many others here are quite capable of dealing with anything I can hand out.
Finally somebody who admits this.
"They exist where life is."
No life in space that we know of.
"Somehow I don't think your numbers are "realistic" at all."
I actually didn't post any numbers. What I did state is that probability calculations are pretty much meaningless without knowing the conditions and/or when using erroneus initial assumptions.
" We do know at the moment that life comes from life."
True. At the moment. We have yet to meaningfully (for this debate), define what life is.
"We have never observed life to arise from non-life solely.
True. This does not prove it false however, considering the conditions that now exist. Any prebiotic life that developed would pretty much be unable to compete with the living.
"Now what did you say about reality?"
Realistic. In other words, more accurate assumptions.
Gives a 'boost' to the start of the day.
LOL
:-)
And if it takes him more than 30 millennia, it's free.
Now we know why those
white shirt NASA types are so
in a hurry to
get the shuttle up.
We thought it was science, but
now we know it's sweets --
--------------------------------------------------
gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields
sold in a market down in new orleans
scarred old slaver knows he's doing alright
hear him whip the women, just around midnight
ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good?
ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should
drums beating cold english blood runs hot
lady of the house wonderin' where it's gonna stop
house boy knows that he's doing alright
you should a heard him just around midnight
ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good?
ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should
ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good?
ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should
i bet your mama was a tent show queen
and all her girlfriends were sweet sixteen
i'm no school boy but i know what i like
you should have heard me just around midnight
ah, brown sugar how come you taste so good?
ah, brown sugar just like a young girl should
i said yeah, yeah, yeah, whew
how come you... how come you taste so good?
i said yeah, yeah, yeah, whew . . .
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