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I don't know, do you agree with Representative Hyde?

Regards, Ivan


1 posted on 06/26/2005 12:27:23 AM PDT by MadIvan
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To: lutz; Deetes; Barset; fanfan; LadyofShalott; Tolik; mtngrl@vrwc; pax_et_bonum; Alkhin; agrace; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/26/2005 12:27:45 AM PDT by MadIvan (You underestimate the power of the Dark Side - http://www.sithorder.com/)
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To: MadIvan
The best thing America could do for 'Africa' is to refuse to give them one more dime.

So, I guess that means that I disagree with my Congressman.

L

Yes, Hyde is actually my Congressman.

3 posted on 06/26/2005 12:30:16 AM PDT by Lurker (Hey children what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.)
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To: MadIvan

In general, yes I agree.


4 posted on 06/26/2005 12:39:46 AM PDT by ncountylee (Dead terrorists smell like victory)
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To: MadIvan

America has the appropriate approach to giving Aid to Africa, e.g., we will no longer fund governments who are aligned against the US. To support our friends is the appropriate response; and by extension we will no longer fund those countries who vote with the French or Chinese. Let the French and Chinese "buy" their own allies and let them bring their own brand of failed social-democracy. For those who support America, we can build ajoining societies who trade and support one another and as the light shines bright in these countries it is my hope that many other countries would one day allow their people to throw off the ilk of European Colonialism as practices today. Wouldn't the world be a better place:)


5 posted on 06/26/2005 1:00:41 AM PDT by Jumper
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To: MadIvan
I think part of the many problems is that we(Western Civi.) keep looking at the African Issue as a whole instead of breaking it down into specific areas. The needs of the Northern part of the continent are going to be greatly different then South or West. The other problem is we are trying to bring them up to fast to the 21st century, instead of bringing them up to the 19th century. The Basic building blocks of civil society need to be laid down first and I have no problem providing aid for that. If they want more than they need to get of their butts and build off the foundation we provide.

But even then there are many complex obstacles. To many of the Southern African Countries operate in a reverse racist/Marxist world. It keeps them from moving forward and making progress, especially when what progress needs to be made is seen as doing the white man's way. Thus it is not done.

So to me we should be providing aid in the form of building the basics for a solid foundation for those countries asking for help and willing to help themselves. Basics being meaning 2 lane highway systems to connect large urban areas, an airport/seaport, proper farming techniques, basic health care(education on how to take care of oneself), clean water delivery system and a government that will protect the citizens rights including private property. I'm sure I left off many others.
7 posted on 06/26/2005 1:10:49 AM PDT by neb52
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To: MadIvan
Africa has to fix Africa. Kofi Annan is King of the World. He also happens to be from Africa. What has he done?

American taxpayers should not be fleeced for the privelege of enriching Africa's crooked leaders either.
9 posted on 06/26/2005 2:04:50 AM PDT by Bon mots
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To: MadIvan
we should focus our partnerships on committed African leaders who are actively implementing the kinds of policies and actions necessary for home-grown economic growth and poverty reduction

And who would that be?

10 posted on 06/26/2005 4:09:34 AM PDT by GVnana
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To: MadIvan

I disagree. Handouts are the problem, not the solution. I think we should write off the current debts; they'll never be collected. Then we should eliminate the agencies that made the loans; they've proved themselves incompetent and corrupt. There should never be another government-to-government loan or international handout organization.

African nations or companies can look for private loans or investment (unsecured by any government - none of this bail-out-the-banks hooey). If they institute rule of law, freedom of contract, guaranteed property rights, low taxes, and stable currency, they'll get private loans and investment. Investors aren't stupid (well, mostly) - they'll take large risks to make big money.

Everyone knows what makes for a growing economy and a functioning society, but governments aren't willing to do it. It's no fun to let people make livings, raise families, and help their neighbors with no government interference! It's long past time for our government (the only one I can influence in the slightest) to stop subsidizing those who refuse to do what we know works.


11 posted on 06/26/2005 5:09:06 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Working Class Zero with wall-to-wall carpeting.)
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To: MadIvan

Lets first ask the question are there any models in africa run by africans?( yes I know africa is a continent with hundreds or ethnic groups and countries?)


Here is the problem, they need infrastructure and private industry. But if some country sends private industry there just to have a Mugabe show up and declare that corporate property should go to native africans then it will never happen.

I think what no one is talking about and it should be addressed is what happened to south africa. Yes apartheid had to be stopped there is no doubt about that. But that country has turned into a violent, rape surrounded sewer. Some would say... well it is going through growing pains, while others see what is happening and are leaving or have left.

I would like to see the existing models of effective leadership innovation and progress that is happening in Africa and study that rather than pouring umpteen billions of un controled cash into the hands of those that are causing the problem to begin with.


12 posted on 06/26/2005 5:43:09 AM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: MadIvan
You can't build a house on an unstable foundation. It will simply collapse the minute you turn your back. The efforts directed in the Middle East have been at cleaning followed by reformation and rehabilitation of attitudes. Basically re-educating an entire society to view their culture in Western terms.

Africa has no such foundation to attempt this. As I understand it, with the fall of apartheid, even South Africa has regressed towards corruption, tribalism and the type of thinking that has lead to so many centuries of societal self-destruction. I hear this much from South Africans who I know personally. They've sacrificed much to become Americans to get away from what they see as a bleam future there.

Africa is a money-hole in which to burn the hard earn, hard-paid tax dollars of any naton so foolish as to throw money into it.

It will take major work to eliminate the part of African society that preys upon itself and continues the cycle of perpetual degraderd and despair that consumes the majority of the African population. Sure, there's some exceptions here and there, but there simply isn't any sufficient foundation that can shine a light for the rest of the continent to follow.

Unless some sort of comprehensive effort is made, any venture to resolve the issues that exist by throwing money at them are doomed.

I hear the Chinese have a long term plan, but the future doesn't involve a free democratic Africa. Yet I can express my disdaine for their current state by suggesting that the Chinese solution would be an improvement.

14 posted on 06/26/2005 6:15:13 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: MadIvan
Damn. I saw the headline and was hoping this would be a detailed military invasion plan. (No, I'm not calling for war on an entire continent; I just think it would be neat to see how we would do it.)
15 posted on 06/26/2005 8:08:41 AM PDT by Dont Mention the War (John Bolton for White House Press Secretary!)
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To: MadIvan

I agree with the Monterrey principles, but they do not guarantee that any given State will reform itself. Mugabe for example clearly won't participate. But the only other viable alternative is re-colonization and nobody has a taste for that.


16 posted on 06/26/2005 8:24:51 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: MadIvan

I vote for letting them help themselves out of this one. Not one dime of my tax dollars, not one little cheerio. Let the live or die on their own. If we help them, the need is never ending.


19 posted on 06/26/2005 10:02:59 AM PDT by jeremiah (Patrick Henry said it best, give me liberty or give me death.)
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To: MadIvan

Nope! Africa is a lost cause, impossible to recover from decades of graft, extreme poverty, AIDS epidemics and stupid governments. How many billions have we poured into African nations only to see it stolen or squandered? Even when they have natural riches, like Nigeria, they can't make it work. It's a hopeless cause, but wait and see---we'll pour in more millions only to see it disappear too. The libs and the NAACP will see to it that the millions will be donated whether the public agrees or not.


20 posted on 06/26/2005 10:15:19 AM PDT by Paulus Invictus (Afric is toast!)
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