Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 3

Believe I heard Greta say, during the previous show, that she was going to interview one of the brothers last night. Didn't see her show--did anyone? Also heard a teaser this morning that there's a witness who "knows" what happened. Huh?

I like your thinking.

As for why [Paulus] may be blackmailed, I suppose it could be anything from debts to some sort of illegal to unseemly activity he was engaged in and threatened with exposure. The only difference in terms of the competing theories is that he may have been "caused" to facilitate an abduction as opposed to being involved in a death.

Now throw in the political ramifications that Geraldo talked about tonight and it makes you wonder, is this all about a wealthy Kennedy-like kid who they have been trying to cover up for or is there something different that they don't want exposed.

You are referring to my #2 theory, the inexperience and ineptness of PVDS and his son as they attempted to repay gambling debts by procuring a blue-eyed blonde. I have absolutely no facts to back that up, mind you, but it's interesting to think about. The only reason I mention it again is for the benefit of anyone still contemplating a Caribbean cruise vacation. Even if this theory has no basis in the Natalee Holloway case, the history behind the political corruptness of Aruba and the surrounding Caribbean area is something every American should know.

Someone here (cajungirl? brigette?) found this excellent read on the ties between the Sicilian mafia/Cosa Nostra , the Croes family, the Mansur family, and criminal activities in the area. I still haven't read the entire thing, but what I have read is fascinating. (see excerpt below)

I find it (slightly) plausible that PVDS, in his desperation to pay his and his son's outstanding gambling debts back to the mafia-owned casino(s), reluctantly became involved in human trafficking. Because this was his first foray into the world of "people procurement," he stupidly "carved out" someone who would be missed and searched for by well-to-do American parents. This theory would explain several things:

1) PVDS's anxiety attack during Greta's interview (he feared his wife would screw up & say something that would get him arrested or decapitated),
2) JVDS's reluctance to talk (He knows they will not find a body, so all he has to do is keep quiet),
3) the mysterious "Columbian necktie" decapitation & other man who went missing shortly after this all began (a not-so-subtle message to all involved parties), and
4) the weirdness of someone like Steve Croes coming forward to lie for people "he doesn't even know"

(BTW, it would be doubtful that Deepack and his brother were aware of what really went on, making their willingness to lie to protect their friend much more believable.)

According to the excerpt below from Palladin on an earlier thread, Jossy Mansur sounded as if he was trying to implicate JVDS early on. I'm wondering where that would fit in. Looking for a scapegoat? Family feud between the Croes family and the Mansur family? (see below for more hints about a family feud. Marked in red.)

-Palladin - [Jossy Mansur] said on FOX-TV that Steve Croese is "an able seaman".... Greta says an email led police to Croese?? She spoke with Jossy Mansur, editor of Diario. He sai he heard that Joran was a "maniac". Jossy also said the Tattoo party boat docked at right around the time the three suspects said they went to the beach. ( http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1426433/posts?page=454#454)

If the article excerpt below is true, Jossy Mansur, the editor of Aruba's Diario and an occasional guest commentator on Fox News, is related to the infamous Mansur Family. They don't sound very nice.

http://www.tni.org/archives/tblick/aruba.htm
Aruban Connections

Five members of the Aruban Mansur Family, viz. Mr. Elias F. Mansur, Mrs. Damia M. de Cuba-Mansur, Mr. Luis E. Mansur, Mr. Miguel J. Mansur and Mrs. Sarah E. Arends-Mansur**(see below), have raised objections against general references in the following chapter to the Mansurs or the Mansur family. In their opinion these references may be understood as including them and thereby implicating them in alleged wrongdoing they have never committed.
The author is of the opinion that such references to a large family will not be misunderstood as including each and every member of the family. However, in case this opinion should prove incorrect, the author points out that he regrets such misunderstanding and that he did not intend said references to implicate all members of the family.

The Cuntrera-Caruana clan had links with another Aruban bank: the Interbank. The bank granted a credit to the Cuntrera company "Investeringen Tweehonderd en Tien" for 1.8 million Aruban guilders (approximately one million dollars). Why the Cuntreras who own several investment companies in Venezuela needed the loan is unknown.
One could speculate, however, this was a 'loan-back' operation to launder money. An amount of money is deposited cash at a bank and the bank lends the money back: now there is a clean and legitimate source of earnings. But there is no proof, no one ever looked really into the relations of the bank with the Sicilian mafiosi. The letter of credit was issued before the mafia connections of the clan became officially known on the island. This did not stop the bank from keeping the Cuntreras as clients. During Operation Wiseguy the undercover DEA agents were asked to wire money for a shipment of hashish on the account of Alfonso Cuntrera at the Interbank.
The Interbank is owned by the Mansur Family. If anybody owns 60 per cent of the island, it is this powerful family. The Mansurs made their fortune as cigarette manufacturers and in the import-export business. With a licence of Philip Morris, they are the major suppliers of Marlboros in the Caribbean basin. The Mansurs sponsor the best baseball team – Aruba's national sport – the Marlboro Red Tigers as well as the AVP party of Prime Minister Henny Eman. They own the biggest hotel and time-sharing complex, La Cabana, with its inevitable casino. And they have a couple of import-export businesses in the Free Trade Zone.
Jossy Mansur is the owner and chief editor of the biggest newspaper on the island, "Diario". ""When I read an article in Diario, I know what will be the next action of the government","says Hendrik Croes, adding that the Mansurs create a climate of fear and intimidation on Aruba. Their newspapers force others off the market. Furthermore, ""their annual income is bigger than the yearly budget of the government. And you may guess how they make that kind of money”."""
Jossy Mansur is not impressed claiming that accusing people of drug trafficking and money laundering ""has become a political tool to discredit them”." (75) Jossy Mansur acts as the family's mouthpiece, Ruben and the elder Alex are the patriarchs, and Elias 'Don' Mansur is the family's whizz-kid. Elias graduated at Notre Dame University, and was Minister of Economic Affairs in Eman's first cabinet. As representative for the Free Trade Zone entrepreneurs in a mixed Dutch-Aruban commission he has to recommend measures to tighten regulations in the FTZ to prevent money laundering and contraband, together with Dutch government officials. (76)
More and more the name Mansur turns up in money laundering cases. Alex and Eric Mansur were indicted in Puerto Rico in August 1994. (77) President Clinton specifically mentioned the Mansur's when he put Aruba on the list of Major Illicit Drug-transit Countries in December 1996. Although no member of the family was actually indicted in the La Costa case, the name Mansur is frequently is found in the files which were seized at Habibe's home on Aruba.
In Venezuela the Mansurs are implicated in money laundering with Santa Lopesierra, the Marlboro Man. Every month Santa 're-invests' 20 million dollar ""with the help of a well-known entrepreneur called Mansur”""." (78) Lopesierra is accused to have financed his election with the proceeds of drug trafficking and a car-theft ring. He is also reputed to be the man behind the Puerto Rico indictment. The activities of Mansur and Lopesierra, however, go well beyond this. They are accused of illegally funding the presidential campaign of Colombian president Ernesto Samper in 1994. Not only did Samper allegedly receive 6 million dollars from the Cali Cartel – an accusation he vehemently denies and ascribes to political machinations – it is said he also pocketed US$ 500,000 in cash offered by ""a group from Philip Morris and Interbank”." (79)
The 'Philip Morris people' are Alex and Eric Mansur and a member of the Lopesierra Family (Santa Lopesierra belongs to the Samper faction in the Liberal Party). Samper tried to ease out of meeting the group, the story goes. He suggested that one of his campaign officials should pick up the cash and bring them to the office later for coffee. ""No one gives that kind of money just for coffee. That's worth at least a breakfast"," the campaign official replied.
The Mansur Family seems to have all the right connections in its corner of the Caribbean. Some Mansur's still have Venezuelan nationality, and they have interests in Maracaibo and Caracas, as well as in Punto Fijo and Coro, where the originally Lebanese Mansur Family had settled before moving to Aruba. Punto Fijo is situated on the Paraguaná peninsula in the North at the Golfo de Venezuela, which separates it from La Guajira. A ferry connects Punto Fijo to Aruba. Some 20 years ago, in 1974, a few Sicilians set up a fishing company in Punto Fijo called "Mediterranea Pesca". Among the shareholders: Leonardo and Giuseppe Caruana and Giuseppe Cuffaro. The company owned a sea-going vessel and Italian police suspected that ""in view of the background of the owners it is probably a cover for drug trafficking”." (80)
Maybe the Mansurs and the Cuntrera-Caruana clan first met each other in this remote part of the world. Nobody knows. (81) But they certainly have met on Aruba, according to several insiders and law enforcement officers. Venezuelan police-officer Guillermo Jiménez states: ""I know they are connected. I have sent files about bank transactions between the Mansur's and the Cuntrera's to Aruba. But documents about the Mansur's are kept secret over there"." DEA-officer David Lorino is equally convinced and has connected the Cuntreras with Ruben Mansur. In his judgement, ""Ruben Mansur is a major-league dope-peddler”." The DEA has the toll-records of the Cuntrera phones in Caracas. ""They phoned Mansur's trading company and his place. They certainly talked to each other"." What they said, Lorino doesn't know, since it is not permitted to tap phones in Venezuela.
Footnotes:
(81) In 1987, 'a confidential informer' told the Venezuelan newspaper El Mundo that the Government should start an investigation into the activities of Mansur in Punto Fijo. They would 'find much interesting affairs'. ('El Gobierno debe abrir un investigacíon sobre actividades de Mansur en Punto Fijo', "El Mundo", 24 December 1987.) Mansur and El Mundo were engaged in a press-war since the Miami correspondent of El Mundo, Antonio Llano Montes, accused Jossy Mansur to head a gang smuggling cigarettes, liquor and televisions to Coro, and was implicated in the murder of Betico Croes, former Prime Minister of Aruba ('Desde Miami', "El Mundo", 10 November 1987.) See also: Brigido Marquino, 'Inunda a Venezuela y el Caribe Contrabando del Magnate Mansur', "El Mundo", 21 December, 1987. (Does this mean there is "bad blood" between the Croes and the Mansurs?)
(snip)

(Nita's addition below:)
FYI: Betico Croes is related to Rudy Croes, the Minister of Defense for Aruba
*** Is Mrs. Sarah E. Arends-Mansur related to Max Arends?? (friend & classmate of Joran who was questioned by police): http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:uE-zH7m1TDEJ:www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159862,00.html+Arends+aruba+%22natalee+holloway%22&hl=en
More on Alfonso Caruana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfonso_Caruana
Cuntrera-Caruana crime family: http://primetimecrime.com/columns/Columns%202000/20000322.htm

A GLOBAL OVERVIEW OF NARCOTICS-FUNDED
TERRORIST AND OTHER EXTREMIST GROUPS
A Report Prepared by the Federal Research Division, Library of Congress
under an Interagency Agreement with the Department of Defense
May 2002
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/pdf-files/NarcsFundedTerrs_Extrems.pdf
According to El Espectador, Mohamed Ali Farhad has been linked to a money laundering investigation that involved the Aruba-based Mansur clan of Eric and Alexander Mansur, who controlled cigarette smuggling in the 1990s through the Mansur Free Zone Trading Company N.V., with its main offices in the Netherlands Antilles. The Mansurs inherited a smuggling and drug trafficking empire established in the islands by the Cosa Nostra's Cuntrera-Caruana clan, when it began to work in Venezuela with Cali Cartel organizations. Until the U.S. indictment of the Mansur brothers for money laundering, Philip Morris’ main distributor in Latin America was the Mansur Free Zone Trading Company, N.V.¹²¹According to a lawsuit filed against Philip Morris in 2000 by the governors of 25 of Colombia’s 32 departments, plus the capital district of Bogotá, the company sold tobacco to smugglers in exchange for narco dollars, in what is commonly referred to as the Black Market Peso Exchange (BMPE). “Instead of repatriating narco dollars from their U.S. sales points, money launderers simply use them to purchase goods, which are then exported to Colombia and other Latin American countries and sold for pesos,” according to the lawsuit. “The pesos then flow into the Colombian bank accounts of the drug barons.” Allegedly, much of the proceeds garnered by the Mansur brothers went to Hizballah.
¹²¹ Tobacco Companies Linked to Criminal Organizations in Cigarette Smuggling: Latin America, The Public i: An Investigative Report of the Center for Public Integrity, March 3, 2001.

"That brings me to the next question. Who can give the Equisearch team permission to search the VDS property with cadaver dogs? I'm shocked this wasn't done on the first day the dogs got to Aruba!."

I was wondering the same thing. Seems to me that checking the VDS property with cadaver dogs would have been done as quickly as possible by LE! The inside of the house search with the dogs would also indicate whether NH was there. Looks more and more like a cover-up!

Who's to say that Deepak didn't know who Mickey Johns really was, and set him up with a fake story that Paul VDS had a family meeting with all of them?

They are ALL abunch of liars, so why do we believe one and not the other? Is it because we WANT to believe Deepak and not Paul Van Der Sloot? We have been assuming that Deepak is telling the gospel truth...well, maybe he isn't. Ever think of that, good people?

I was wondering the same thing. Seems to me that checking the VDS property with cadaver dogs would have been done as quickly as possible by LE! The inside of the house search with the dogs would also indicate whether NH was there. Looks more and more like a cover-up!

I read on an earlier post that drug dogs had been used to search their house. This entire investigation is a joke. They knew the Equisearch team had cadaver dogs & should have INSISTED they take them and search the VDS home and property first! If you ask me, the fix is in and it's clear the VDSs are going to walk. I just hope Natalee's body can be recovered and that her family can finally return home and get the hell out of that corrupt country.

You know the I think the reason there was a problem getting Texas Equisearch's cadaver dogs onto the island is that PVDS had friends try to block them because her body is somewhere on his property. Furthermore, I think that PVDS sweating was due to anxiety plus drug use. Cocaine or Methamphetamine use will cause a person to sweat profusely.

I didn't see all of Greta's interview with PVDS and AVDS. Was he sweating from the get go or did he start sweating after he returned from the phone call? I've seen this type of sweating in a clinical setting as well as in a personal setting. I know one of you has been at a party where a friend or acquaintance has taken a few too many "bathroom" breaks.
TAW

Incredible post. Although I don't gamble, it is my understanding that in the long run the house always wins. Apparently Joran is well known at many casinos and gambles frequently. The law of averages would imply that he has lost more than he's won. This fact makes your #2 theory even more interesting.

As a mother, witnessing the pain and perseverance of the Holloways and Twittys, I want to believe Natalee is still alive. Your theory gives me that hope.

Who's to say that Deepak didn't know who Mickey Johns really was, and set him up with a fake story that Paul VDS had a family meeting with all of them?

They are ALL abunch of liars, so why do we believe one and not the other? Is it because we WANT to believe Deepak and not Paul Van Der Sloot? We have been assuming that Deepak is telling the gospel truth...well, maybe he isn't. Ever think of that, good people?

You obviously didn't see Greta's interview with Mickey Johns, or you wouldn't have come up with those assumptions.

I saw it. And??

Did anyone get a look at Steve Croes's father. Pretty scary. He would be the poster child for an alcoholic homeless convention.

INcredible putting together of this story.

That said, change your name, dye your hair, ditch all loved ones and flee to, say, Oklahoma.

These are not nice people.

The PVDS sweating incident didn't happen on camera. It happened when Greta & Beth went to the VDS home and were invited in with no cameras. They stayed for 90 minutes.

kcvl posted some very interesting stuff about the reasons people suddenly start sweating profusely. It is a common reaction when someone lies and is nervous. I don't buy that PVDS is on drugs at all.

He's sweating cause he's guilty and knows what happened to Natalee & where she is, IMO.

He is sweating because he is between the mob, oops I meant a rock, did I say mob, really didn't mean it. He is between a rock and a hard place. Serve up his son or deal with the rock, the well, you know what I mean.

The Kalpoe brother LIED before, what makes you think they wouldn't LIE again to save their skins?

I am not exonerating any of the three suspects. Just that they are all still Lieing. If this is the case, then they ALL know what happened to Natalee.

I'm not even hinting that Micky Johns is lieing, just that the information given to him was bogus. So it could be that PVDS didn't have a meeting with any of them. I'm saying that we need to find the TRUTH, instead of looking for a needle in a haystack.

sw

I agree. This family had plenty of time to decide what to do with the body. If you lived on a small caribbean island where would you dump a body? Duh! About a mile off shore with a weight tied to her.

I think he's guilty as sin also. I was just thinking that drug use may account for his hyper-weirdness. How many people that live on a tropical island have such a pasty complexion? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if he hangs upside down from the rafters at night.;-)

Watch it again if you can. It's just too far fetched, IMO, for Deepak to think:

"I'll exonerate myself by telling this security guard that I had nothing to do with the girl's disappearance, but will tell him that the VDS family ordered us to stick to an alibi blaming the security guards. Then, MAYBE a month later Mickey Johns will be interviewed by someone and this news will eventually leak out!"

Is that a tongue in cheek theory, or do you really suspect mob, I mean rock involvement?