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Disinformation: Operation Serbia
Shofar.de ^ | June 07, 2005 | Raimund Meyer

Posted on 06/08/2005 10:45:34 AM PDT by dj_animal_2000

The war against Serbia actually began a long time ago, with the first attempts to manipulate the public opinion against Serbia, in the beginning of the 90's. These manipulations have been carefully ordered, planned, organized, structured, scheduled and realized. Their generic name is "DISINFORMATION OPERATIONS". Disinformation is an extremely powerful and formidable weapon. The successes of disinformation operations toward Serbia have led to several wars, huge destructions and sufferings, hundreds of thousands of killed, wounded, deported people, without noticeable reaction of the public opinion other than a more or less tacit and passive approval. I hope the following brochure will help to understand what is disinformation, how it works and how to fight against it.

Disinformation: Bases

What is disinformation ?

The disinformation is a manipulation of the public opinion, for political purposes, with an information processed by diverted means.

What are its goals ?

- at the enemy : to demoralize, weaken, disintegrate, destroy it. - at home : to neutralize and drive the masses in order to make them go in the desired direction at the desired moment without resistence. Success in this area is mandatory in any democracy, which is in fact nothing else than an apparent dictature of the majority.

How to do it ?

- Discredit the authorities of the opposing country, imply them into illegal operations, shake their reputation. - Discredit and hold up to ridicule everything which is good in the opposing country. Its traditions, its religion, its faith, its army, its history. The aim is to destroy the identity of a people. - Weaken the adversary. Encourage and make him a slave of his passions (sex, money, wealth, power) in order to make him paralyzed and without resistence.

- Destroy the adversary by dividing him. Excite some against others, young against old, women against men, political wing against political wing. - Accordingly, do exactly the contrary in your country. Make the nation united in the same spirit and having the same will, reinforce the trust in your power, your institutions, your leaders.

With what methods ? (deals essentially with disinformation "at home")

1) Devilization (always say as much evil as possible about the potential enemy).

2) Manicheism (present one side as 100% good, the other as 100% bad and evil). It is the principal characteristic of every violence apology : in a first step, the adversary is presented as a horrible monster, in order to produce a disgust reflex. Moreover, it has the advantage to make the fiction more appealing than the reality, because, not necessitating any reflection, the fiction becomes easier to understand and to assimilate. It works particularly well with primitive and low educated people. This specific feature is characteristic of the american culture. Indeed, in practically every american movie, one find the following elements, based onto an appropriate use of human passions : - good guys - bad guys - baddies do appalling horrors, which excites in the audience various passions like hatred, disgust, desire of vengeance, revenge, violence, murder, etc... - When the audience is excited enough and dominated by its passions, goodies perform the so desired and long-awaited bloody massacre of baddies. Baddies die in horrible sufferings, the audience is happy and satisfied, and passively absorbs the thesis : "it is justice". Snakes Pliskens, Ramboes, Rockies, die hards, Schwarzies, Charles Bronsons, judges Dredds, punishers, various warriors, cartoons, Batmans, Chucks Norris, dirty Harries, star wars, aliens, predators, independence days, etc.. are archetypes of such primitive scenarii (including Bill Clinton saying "It's the war of Good against Evil" ! ).

3) Repetition. "A lie repeated one thousand times remains a lie, a lie repeated one billion times becomes truth" (Goebbels). Repeat and repeat again what you want people to believe in.

4) Hyperbolic inflation of the stakes. (Say that the entire Europa and probably later the whole earth will be transformed in a blood bath if you don't intervene).

5) Polarisation. ("If you are not with us, you are against us", "if you refuse to kill, you will be a murderer").

6) Invoke God's punishment. ("God bless America").

7) Metapropaganda. (The art of making suspicious everything coming from the adversary). Never call opposing media "informations source", but always qualify them as "rough liars" and "propaganda tool".

8) Black propaganda. (Simulate a propaganda from your enemy, and subtly inject subversive ideas into it).

9) Appropriate use of false facts (lies). - Make the adversary say what he didn't say ("He is against the bombing, so he is for Milosevic"). - Make the adversary say what he didn't say, but by using what he said elsewhere (hotchpotch) ("You said that you don't hate Milosevic, so you like him"). - Make the adversary say what he didn't say, but what you guess he would have said if he were fair. (For example, attribute to Milosevic violent anti-albanian speaches, while he never did any) - Publish false informations, fakes, rigged images. This method can be used extensively and without caution : indeed, only the first announcement does matter. Further denials have NO EFFECT on public opinion. Nevertheless, since it is always possible to bring a lie to the fore, and in order to maintain an impression of objectivity, denials are steadily published, generally in small letters and at a discreet place. - Suggest false or unproved things. In order to avoid the unpleasant impression left by too frequent denials, another similar technique consists of suggesting false events by using conditionals (would, could, should) and various adverbs like "perhaps", "probably", maybe", "allegedly", "supposedly", etc.. that allow to say anything without having to deny afterwards. The use of quotes (""), which allows to associate suspicion and doubt to anything, is abundantly used by written media.

10) Appropriate use of true facts. The pursued goal here is not to inform, but to obtain a given effect. There are several ways to exploit a fact. It can be asserted/negated, magnified/minimized, approved/disapproved, or simply passed over in silence.

No mention of the fact ("What you dont speak about does not exist." Goebbels). - Negation of facts (And accuse the other of lie. Say that civilian targets are military). - Inversion of facts (Present the torturers as victims. In our moralizing and victimophilic time, the compassion reflex is immediate). - True/false mixing, in various proportions (Multiply by xx 10,000 the number of supposed victims, the losses of the enemy, etc...) - Motif modification ("The goal of the operation is highly humanitarian"). - Circumstances modification ("This war is a defence operation against an aggression"). - Blurring (Flood the fact in a mass of other facts, overinform with useless information. Start a war in order to make people forget about the president's lies, lack of honesty or sexual errings). - Camouflaging (Blow the ones up out of all proportion, minimize the others). - Interpretation (Use of highly appropriate and oriented wording). This technique allows to associate precise ideas to facts. - Generalization (Transform individual to collective. Find a couple of Serbian criminals, and say that all Serbs are criminals) - Illustration (Inverse of generalization. Say that in every war there are innocent civilian casualties, and that Serbian victims are just the unavoidable illustration of this axiom). - Quantitatively unequal parts. (Publish only interviews of Albanians, none of Serbs). (Organize a public "objective debate" with pro- and anti-, let pro speak 90% of the time, anti 10% and interrupt them permanently). - Qualitatively unequal parts. (Organize the same "objective debate", make both parts speak equally 50% of the time, but... invite for pro an academician, PhD in psychology, having a deep knowledge of the situation and used to speak publically, and for anti a seller of hamburgers).

How it works ? The very best disinformation service that ever existed, the "A" department of the First Principal Direction of the KGB, often followed this method : - collection of elements allowing to substantiate a given disinformation - choice of a theme - recruiting of relays to spread the disinformation - action (with the help of "resonance chambers" (e.g. influent people), whose function is to maximize the effect of the disinformation) - creation of a psychotic hysteria leading people to perform "self-disinformation". This last point, psychosis and hysteria, is the typical and specific feature of a successful disinformation operation, leading to a quasi-unanimity in the public opinion. Self-disinformation is a kind of quasi pathologic state where people voluntarily get, see, hear only the information which agrees with the disinformation theme. It is self-censure.

How it is realized ? A disinformation operation comprizes the following elements : - the agent (the actual realizer) - the customer (or beneficiary) - the marketing study (choice of best adapted supports) - the supports (facts or informations. True or false is not important) - the relays (to ensure information transfer and spreading) - the theme ("Serbs are not people like others") - the processing of the theme (the actual methods used in the operation) - the resonance chambers (influence agents) - the target (e.g. the public opinion) - the psychosis (obtained if the operation is successful). The success of a disinformation operation is usually proportional to the ignorance of the population on a given subject, and to the amount of its prejudices. Obtaining psychosis and self-disinformation in the target is the supreme goal of any disinformator. One must have in mind that disinformation is only superficially aimed at intelligence. In fact, it is aimed at emotional centers, guts, instincts, irrational behaviours, primitive fears and reactions, emotional reflexes. Instinctive and emotion-driven behaviour automatically short-circuits the action of intelligence and reflection. It actually eliminates any critical analysis capability of the target, who ends defenceless in the hands of the disinformator.

Disinformation: Examples

Example of different possible uses of the SAME true fact : Here is a demonstration of different ways to comment the SAME FACT. The fact is "the dog ate the meat" and the mission is to innocent the dog (I hope you will enjoy). - OK it's the dog, but yesterday it was the cat. - What meat ? - It was only a small half-pound piece of the several tons of meat stored at this place. - It was a small piece of an old burned meat, forgotten in the refrigerator.

- The meat was placed in the dog's plate, who BTW just licked it, despite of the fact that he didn't eat for three days. - He didn't eat it, he just gave it to his girlfriend. - It's a five years old German shepherd, who last year saved his master from drowning. He watches the house, brings him the newspaper every morning, barks and eats a lot. - The plate of the meat was made of blue earthenware. It was a 4 pounds turkey. The dog was locked up inside the house because of the rain and cold. It is the neighbour who let him eat the meat. - Dogs are unhappy in flats because banks do not give low rate loans in order to build individual houses. - Noodles so-and-so allow to avoid this kind of problem. - It is pitiful, masters who let their dogs starving. - An eyewitness testified that a wandering dog ate it. - There has been a TV emission explaining that dogs are not responsible unless they have received a correct education. - Be careful ! One has already said that he bited somebody 3 weeks ago, while it was another dog. Were you here when the meat disappeared ? No ? So first find the meat, before accusing this poor dog with so many slanders. - The dog died : the meat was poisoned.

The same, with "an Albanian killed a Serb". - The day before, twelve gypsies have been killed at the same place. - What Serb ? - This war has made several tens of thousands of victims of both sides. - He was heavily wounded and dying. The Albanian felt pity for him and put an end to his sufferings. - He was under surveillance like the other prisoners, and then he tried to escape and began to run. One of the guards shot him at the legs, but unfortunately the bullet striked him at the head. - The Serb first shot at him, and he replied to enemy fire. - He is a very experienced officer. He belongs to one of the most famous elite units of the KLA. Those guys receive specific training for special reconnaissance missions in advanced enemy territory and are used to execute their mission in very small groups or even alone, in extremely severe conditions. - The Albanian stumbled and the shooting happened by mistake. - He saw that the situation was desperate, but he prefered to commit suicide rather than surrender. - A good equipment, an appropriate training and a commandment by experienced officers would have allowed to avoid this kind of incidents. - The KLA strength has been so much reduced after years of war, so they have even incorporated ex-convicts. - An eyewitness testified that he was killed by NATO peacekeeping forces, during a peacekeeping operation. - These people know only war since their birth. They have seen their entire family killed and their homes burned. To remove such a hatred will take years and years. - Be careful ! Were you here when he was shot ? No ? So first find the responsible, before accusing all the Albanians of being murderers. - He has not been killed : he just died naturally.

Dictionary of "appropriate wording" : - assassinate = kill, when your enemies are killing. - mass grave = where your enemies have buried your friends. - war criminal = who makes war and is not of your side. Very often (and perfidiously) used to indicate someone indicted for war crimes and not yet sentenced guilty. - extremist = more extremist than you. - fascist = to be pronounced first by you, because it can be applied to you as well as to your enemy. - racist = who makes a difference between Islam and Christianity. - terrorist = who uses violence and is not of your side. - deviationist = in a political group, who does not agree with you. - totalitarian = politics of your enemy. - fanatic = someone who believes in something different than you. - nationalist = who loves his country and is not of your side.

Example of use of appropriate wording (interpretation) : In the following list, there are two different ways to describe the SAME FACT. Note that whatever formula is chosen, it can perfectly be inverted from pro- to anti-, and there is no way to be accused of lying or even distorting the truth. - Serbs are killed, Albanians are massacred or assassinated. - Serbs dig mass graves, Albanians dig tombs or communal graves. - A Serbian soldier with a Kalashnikov is a sniper, an KLA soldier with a Kalashnikov is a freedom fighter. - Serbian corpses have battlefield wounds, Albanian corpses have traces of tortures. - Serbian refugees are leaving Kosovo, Albanians refugees are ethnically cleansed from Kosovo. - A Serbian refugee convoy is a line of cars, an Albanian refugee convoy is a deportation. - Ethnical cleansing of Albanians is an atrocity, ethnical cleansing of Serbs is a logical payback. - A smiling serbian soldier is arrogant, a smiling KLA soldier is happy. - Serbian soldiers are slovenly-looking, KLA soldiers clearly suffer from equipment problems. - Serbian civilians killed by NATO are collateral damage, Albanian civilians killed by NATO are a terrible mistake. - Serbian civilians killed by Albanians are war casualties, Albanian civilians killed by Serbians are war crime victims. - Milosevic is Milosevic, Clinton is the President of United States Bill Clinton. - There are Albanian eyewitnesse's concording testimonies reporting that..., there are Serbs saying that... - Serbs living near a military target are neighbour population, Albanians living near a military target are a human shield. - A successful Serbian attack is a slaughter, a successful KLA attack is a victory. - Serbian nationalists are extremists, Albanian nationalists are patriots. - Serbs commit atrocities, Albanians commit exactions. - Ten torched Serbian houses are a brutal reality, ten torched Albanian houses are evidence of Serb savagery. - Serbs insulting Albanians are making terror reign, Albanians insulting Serbs are angry people taking revenge for their humiliation. - Serbian soldiers take muslim enclaves, Albanian soldiers defend their homeland. - The Krajina is liberated by the Croats, the Bosnia is occupied by the Serbs.

Disinformation: Operation Serbia

1) The agent. The public opinion manipulation agency in charge of the Serbia operation was Ruder Finn Global Public Affairs.

From June to September 1992, Ruder Finn has : - had 30 meetings with the main press groups - diffused 13 exclusive informations - sent 37 last minute faxes - sent 17 official letters - submitted 8 official reports - given 48 telephone calls to White House members - given 20 telephone calls to Senate members - given about 100 telephone calls to media influent personalities. Throughout their activity against Serbia public image, they actively participated in : - Islamic Conference emergency session on Bosnia-Herzegovina (Istambul June1992) - Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe (Helsinki July 1992) - Conference on Former Yugoslavia (London August 1992) - United Nations General Assembly (October 1992) - OIC in Jedda - UN Human Rights Commission in Geneva - meetings with State Department - meetings with National Security Council officials They also organized various private meetings between the Bosnia foreign minister and : - former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in London - vice presidential candidate Senator Albert Gore in New York - Saudi Ambassador to the US Prince Bandar in Houston - President Bush - Secretary of State Baker in Helsinki.

2) The customer (or beneficiary) Officially, Ruder Finn had as customers the Republic of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, as well as the albanian opposition in Kosovo. Such a unanimity is suspect, and it is probable that Ruder Finn has been suggested to them (and helped) by some kind of 4th customer, probably some US department (still not proven, but highly suspected after information publication about CIA role in Bosnia war).

3) The market study The original situation was very difficult, because : - Serbs fought heroically against nazis during WWII - the nazis founded a Croat state, whose actual croats openly claim to have their roots in - bosnian muslims have been massively engaged during WWII in the 13th SS division "Handschar", known for its atrocities - albanian muslims have been massively engaged in the 21th SS division "Skenderberg" - these SS and croatian ustashis performed a genocide of Jews, Serbs and Gypsies - Franjo Tudjman wrote a book published in 1989, "Wastelands of historical truth", clearly antisemitic. He also openly admires Ante Pavelic. - Izetbegovic published in 1970 an "Islamic declaration", clearly racist and claiming a super-islamic state. The only positive point was the tremendous lack of knowledge of Balkan's history in the population. This point has been fantastically exploited.

4) The supports The first support used by Ruder Finn was the publishing by the New York Newsday of articles about prisoner camps, where muslims were kept.

5) The relays The stroke of genius of Ruder Finn was to ensure a relaying by Jewish organizations. The single word "camp" was enough to disturb this community, and Ruder Finn immediately organized meetings with three Jewish organizations : - the B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation League - the American Jewish Committee - the American Jewish Congress. Ruder Finn then suggested them to publish an article in the NY Times, and to organize a demonstration in front of the UN. To make Jews support muslims against christian Serbs was an extraordinary gamble, and it worked perfectly. From this moment, the media started to have a strong anti-Serb attitude and to use a heavily emotion-loaded language : "ethnic cleansing", "concentration camps", "deportation", etc... The disinformation theme was straightforward :

6) The theme was : "Serbs = Nazis". Despite of the incongruity of this theme (Serbs have been the most anti-nazi people of the Balkans), the absolute general ignorance about History made it work. This theme was so strong so that it has been assimilated immediately by the media (who love sensationalism), and it was IRREMEDIABLE. Everyone trying to defend the Serbs were depicted as pro-Nazi. This theme is used for almost 8 years now, and is still very successful.

7) The processing of the theme (other supports) Seven other main supports have been used in this operation :

- Destructions Emphasis has always been put on eventual destructions performed by Serbs. Since they were not sufficient, false information was used. "The city of Dubrovnik has been entirely devastated" (Paris-Match, November 29, 1991). Dubrovnik is actually intact. "Strategic point for the Serbs, the Vukovar bridge was an architectural marvel..." (Actuel, December 1993). There is no bridge in Vukovar, the photography was the bridge of Mostar, and it has been destroyed by the Croats. "The village of Cetekovak has been razed to the ground..." (L'evenement du jeudi, September 12, 1991). Cetekovak is intact.

- Ethnic cleansings The expressions "ethnic cleansing", "deportation" have been intentionally used by the media in order to recall WWII atrocities and to reinforce the theme. While expulsions were practiced by all parts, no media ever reported that a half million Serb refugees have been "ethnically cleansed" from Bosnia and Croatia.

- Camps The Serbian camps were absolutely ordinary and had nothing in particular. This required the use of fakes and bogus information. "The picture that fooled the world", a photography of an emaciated man, behind barbwires, was the first fake (made by Penny Marshall (ITN) and Ian Williams (Chan4), worldwide published August 6, 1992). On the original image, the emaciated man is surrounded by not-emaciated ones. The man, Fikret Alic, was not a prisoner, but a refugee. The Trnopolje camp was a refugee camp and not a prison. The refugees were outside barbwires, the reporters inside. There were no barbwires around the camp, and the barbwires were those of a neighbour pasture.

The publishing of this picture produced: - a huge hysteria campaign in the media ("Belsen 92", "The Proof", "The picture of the Holocaust and concentration camps", "Survivors of Auschwitz", "Evidence mounts on executions and beatings in Serb-run camps") - an emergency meeting of the cabinet of British prime minister John Major, at which it was decided to send British troops to Bosnia. - Democratic Party candidate Bill Clinton and running mate Al Gore asked president George Bush to take military action against Bosnian Serbs. - Nato staff (in Brussels) started to plan a military intervention in the Balkans. (The fake was denounced by Thomas Deichmann. ITN admitted the truth in the High Court in April 1997 - five years later). Image of "Muslim prisoners in a Serbian detention camp", with a skeletal man (Time cover photo, August 17, 1992). The man, Slobodan Konjevic, 37, was Serb and has been arrested and confined on charges of looting. He was skeletal because of suffering from tuberculosis for 10 years. The 1992 BBC filming of an ailing, elderly "Bosnian Muslim prisoner-of-war in a Serb concentration camp" resulted in his later identification by relatives as retired Yugoslav army officer Branko Velec, a Bosnian Serb held in a Muslim detention camp.

- Rapes The idea of "rape camps" was positively outstanding. The media hysteria was general (titles : "Rape by order", "Rape horror", "Rape camps", "A pattern of rape"...), and people started to believe in the existence of a "systematic rape plan". In reality, rapes happened not more than in any war, and have been performed by all sides. In 1992, the Bosnian government claimed that 50,000 muslim women have been raped, information abundantly relayed by the media. After investigation, Amnesty International published in January 21, 1993, a report where the issue of rape was qualified as a "propaganda weapon". Later on, the UN Commission of Experts on War Crimes identified only 800 victims - Muslim, Serb and Croat -. The hyperbolic inflation of numbers is well illustrated by the following testimony: "When I was at 50 kilometers from Tuzla, I was told 'go to Tuzla high school ground, as there are 4,000 raped women'. At 20 kilometers, this figure dropped to 400. At 10 kilometers, only 40 were left. Once at the site, I found only 4 women willing to testify." (French television reporter Jerome Bony, Envoye Special, quoted in French magazine Le Point).

- Gasses The April 10, 1995, "Le Soir", a belgian newspaper, published that Serbian police have used tear-gas. This information has been relayed and transformed as follows: "Serbs use gasses" (Die Welt, April 10, 1995). "American spokesmen established that in Zepa, Serbs have used chemical weapons" (NBC Handelsblad, July 28, 1995).

- Mass graves The expression "mass grave" has something frightening and has been extensively used. Its emotional content overcomes the fact that there are people killed in every war, and these people must be buried somewhere.

- Massacres The amount of casualties was dementially inflated, and every death was attributed to Serbs. In February of 1993, the Bosnian government, relayed by the international media, published the estimated number of 250,000 victims. The International Red Cross later on estimated the figures at 20-30,000. Not published. It is interesting to note that the Sarajevo massacre, very probably performed by Bosnian muslims (UN analysis report by Reuters, Feb. 18, 1994 and David Binder article Oct. 2, 1995, "The Nation"), has been willfully and deliberately used as a pretext for NATO operations against Serbia, with FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE FACTS (Publishing of a talk between M. Jean Daniel and M. Juppe, French prime minister "Le Nouvel Observateur", August 31, 1995).

8) The psychosis. The psychosis and hysteria became total. Some titles and expressions found in the media : "the daily horror", "the criminal madness of Serbian commanders", "horrors without equivalent in Europe since at least a half-century", "particularly bestial rapes", "there are, on Serb side, war criminals", "the terrible confession of the atrocities committed by a young Serb", "the black part which is in every human being [...] is here, in all its horror", "rape is actually a crime against humanity", "Bosnia the shame", "everything indicates a deliberate will of humiliation, annihilation of beings where Serbs have been the principal actors", "Serbs created a hell", "ordinary cetnik : repeater rapes and murders", "Serbs reached a new step in war horror", "the damned of Europe", "at the end of hatred", "silence, one kill", "back to the hell", "shame camps", "Mladic butchers", "the mad psychiatrist", "the most terrifying action the UN ever participated to", "the greatest betrayal of UN", "the ultimate step of an aberrant politics devoured by its own logic", "Satan himself could not have imagined a so cruel thing", "a monster of horror movie that you believe dead and in pieces, and whose each tentacle inflates and get autonomous life"...

The gigantism of the "Operation Serbia" gave rise to number of false notes.

- A child killed by a sniper in a bus (Sarajevo, Aug 1992) called "muslim" by the TV. The funerals show Orthodox ritual. - A 1992 TV report showing Serb victims in Vukovar, reprinted with the caption "Is there any way to stop Serbian atrocities in Bosnia?" (Newsweek, Jan 4, 1993) - Reports of massacres of 14 muslims and then 10 muslims supposedly killed by Serbs (CNN March and May 1993). The victims later turned out to be Serbs.Not corrected. - Photo of a Croat woman from Posusje grieving for a son killed in Serb attacks (NY times Aug 1993). Fightings in the Croat village of Posusje were between Muslims and Croats and have caused 34 Bosnian Croat deaths, including the son of the woman in the photo. - A photo of a woman in front of the grave of her son, presented as Croat. The name is written in cyrillic, she is Serb. - A photo of a tortured man with the 3 main fingers cut, presented as muslim. He has his wedding ring at the 4th finger of its right hand, he is a Serb. - Armed paramilitary men, particularly sinister, presented as Serbs. They wear the Croat check pattern insignia (Corrected and apologized by "Le Nouvel Observateur", No 1470 and 1473). - Testimony of Anisa, a child, saying that she saw Serbs cutting noses and ears in Tuzla. Tuzla has never been occupied by Serbs. - Images of a fragments of a downed "Mig-29" (CTV Mar 26, 1999, 22h42). There is a mention in english "ANNUAL INSP" +references painted on one of the fragments.

As a conclusion, Serbia is now synonym of Nazi Germany, and the Serbian people, sentenced to poverty and slow death by years of embargo and full devastation by the US+NATO coalition, is now considered by all the West as the parias of mankind. The "Operation Serbia" has been 100% successful. Congratulations. Sad but true.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: balkans; kosovo; serbia
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: ninenot

Don't listen to Joan. She has picked up her anti-Catholicism from Communist propaganda.


41 posted on 06/08/2005 5:29:30 PM PDT by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

Thanks for the info.

I trust the Catholic Bishop--until he is proven wrong, conclusively.


42 posted on 06/08/2005 8:38:05 PM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: sefarkas
I can understand a lack of anti-communists amongst the Clinton administration, but I can't understand why the so-called conservatives and others on FR give a pass to the communists who were running Serbia at the time NATO intervened. The only good communist is a dead communist. Period.

Besides Izetbegovic, who was an Islamic fundamentalist, all politicians in former Yugoslavia were somehow in their early career's members of the communist party...

Btw.......The people of Serbia tried to get rid of Milosevic...:

March 9 - 11, 2001 June 15 - July 10, 1992 November 1996 - February 1997 February 2 - 3, 1997

The West closed both eyes, ignored the demonstrations and kept signing contracts after contracts with Milosevic...

When they were done using Milosevic as their tool, NATO started bombing the Serbian people on March 24, 1999...

43 posted on 06/08/2005 11:16:21 PM PDT by dj_animal_2000
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To: dj_animal_2000

Fascinating reading! Thanks for the ping on this.


44 posted on 06/08/2005 11:18:58 PM PDT by Jane_N (Truth, like beauty....is in the eyes of the beholder! And please DON'T feed the trolls!)
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To: ninenot

Do you have a link to his comments, by chance?


45 posted on 06/09/2005 12:36:12 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

http://zenit.org/english/

Article # ZE05060728


46 posted on 06/09/2005 5:21:22 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, Tomas Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: ninenot
Thank you very much!

I had the honour and privilege of attending a Mass conducted by Cardinal Puljic at the Feast of St. Ann two summers ago in Bosnia. Great Mass, great sermon.

47 posted on 06/09/2005 6:01:17 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: ninenot

Serbs as favored children? Hardly and honest statement.


48 posted on 06/09/2005 10:32:30 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: ninenot; Diocletian
I hope Cardinal Puljic is not true to his roots (Djakovo). I seriously hope and pray that if he is, he will repent and reform; if not, that he will clean up his Bishops. Given these comments of his and Dio's comment, I am a bit perplexed. Perhaps Dio can tell me more about him.

As a Catholic, I am ashamed to the marrow of my bones by some of the sermons and comments made by Catholic Bishops and priests which I heard during my time there. The fellow at the Cathedral in Djakovo (from whence the Cardinal hails) was particularly offensive. Catholics from other countries working in the area drove to Hungary to attend Mass every Sunday because they could not stomach listening to the virulent nationalism spewing from the pulpit there.

I distinctly recall the nasty "conversation" between two Croat Bishops aired on HRTV on Christmas morning of 1997. In particular, I recall one of them saying "Maybe someday we can forgive the Muslims, but we must never, never forgive the Serbs." < sarcasm > Merry Christmas. I'm sure Jesus was real proud of them. < /sarcasm >

The Catholic Church in Croatia needs some serious cleaning up. I am not saying all Croats are nationalist whackos. They certainly are not. However, in my opinion, the Church should play a leadership role in discouraging such nastiness, not a leading role in fomenting it.

I was in the process of converting to the Catholic Church when I left for Croatia. My experience of the Catholic Church there was so bitter, and I was so appalled by it, that it took several years to get over it before I did finally complete RCIA.

As for whether Croats in BiH are being "discriminated against" by the "international community" while Muslims and Serbs are "supported", well, I just don't know how things are being done there in detail right now. The Cardinal gives figures for numbers who were displaced vs numbers who have returned. A pertinent question is: how many of those displaced settled in Croatia (or Germany) and want to stay there?

Croatia bases citizenship on what they call "nationality" and we Americans would call "heritage". Therefore, Croats from BiH (or Canada or Argentina or wherever) can have Croatian citizenship. I saw the Croats building houses with money provided by the "international community" for Croats displaced from BiH to permanently relocate in Croatia. Burning down perfectly good houses which had belonged to chased-out Serbs while using donated "international community" money to build new ones. It didn't sit well with me. Sorry. Why should I donate my hard-earned money so they can build a new house on top of the ashes of a house they just willfully and maliciously burnt down? No thank you.

Following "Operation Storm" over 75% of the houses in Sectors North and South ("Krajina) were burnt down, blown up, or so severely looted they were rendered uninhabitable (they took windows, roof tiles, even toilets -- it was quite the looting frenzy and there were actually traffic jams of looters). Why should I pay the same people who destroyed all that to rebuild it?

I also recall that a year or so ago, the Croat leadership in BiH got in some serious trouble for stealing funds donated by the "international community". Of course, the Bosnian Muslim and RS leadership in BiH have also stolen funds.

How many displaced Bosnian Muslims and Serbs have returned to their homes in BiH? Sorry, I can't take the Cardinal's assessment at face value until I see some hard and fast numbers on whether aid has been proportionate to population and how many of which groups have returned. And for those who have not, why not. There has been a great deal of house trading among all three groups. Many people simply traded houses instead of returning to an area where they would be in the minority.

I am sorry for the suffering of Croat IDPs and refugees, as I am for all the IDPs and refugees. Each of those people has a face and a sad tale to tell. Many have broken hearts.

To explain about Djakovo: It is a town in Eastern Croatia with a remarkably ugly brick cathedral. (Most Croat Churches are lovely, far more so than our American ones, but not this one.) After WWII, Tito settled some of the wildest, most inbred nut cases (both Croat and Serb) from Herzegovina in that area. The people in the area (both Croat and Serb) whose families always lived in the area are among the nicest, most reasonable people you will ever meet. The Doljaci (I hope I remember that word correctly), whether Croat or Serb, were often far-out nationalist whackos, true to their roots. Tito should have sent them all to Yemen or somewhere they'd fit in better ;)

I hope you can understand why I don't automatically trust the Cardinal. And I hope Dio can help me learn about him.

49 posted on 06/10/2005 2:08:27 AM PDT by wonders (Let go of a small part of your righteousness and in a few days you you will be at peace-Abba Poeman)
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To: dj_animal_2000

The whole Yugoslavian affair should have been handled (or not) by the Europeans (esp the French and Germans). It is in their back yards and they say they want to play at world power. we should have let them! See how they do with out Uncle Sugar footing the bill.


50 posted on 06/10/2005 3:44:04 AM PDT by truemiester
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To: wonders
What mistrust are you referring to? What is wrong with nationalism? Should the Croatian clergy go liberal and propose support for female clergy, homosexuals, etc?

Only 10,000 Croats have been allowed to return to RS, the pressure that Croatia has received regarding Serbian refugees has been on a scale several times larger than that which the RS has received. Croats want to return to their homes in Derventa, Bosanski Brod, Bosanski Samac and in Stolac, but their homes were 100% destroyed in 1992 by the Serbs through dynamiting.

As for the overall position of Croats in BiH, Puljic is referring to the fact that the Serbs have their own entity, and that Croats are stuck under Muslim domination in an unequal Federation forced upon us by the international community.

51 posted on 06/10/2005 4:48:11 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: wonders; ninenot; Diocletian
Has Croatian nationalism subverted the Roman Catholic Church again?

You'd have thought their years under Pavelich would have taught them something.

52 posted on 06/10/2005 4:54:14 AM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: FormerLib

Excuse me?


53 posted on 06/10/2005 4:54:36 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
Dio, of course not! (on the "going liberal")

What's wrong with nationalism? A lot. What's wrong with patriotism? Nothing.

I thought the Catholic Church in Croatia should have stood up against some of the most egregious human rights abuses of minority Serbs, Roma and Muslims rather than encouraging "unforgiveness". Perhaps they should have preached some tolerance for law-abiding minorities instead of talking about them as if they were vermin, as the Djakovo priest did. Also, why didn't I ever see any of those nice clean nuns who rode trams around in Zagreb... why didn't I ever see them in Sector North helping the remaining elderly and handicapped starving Serbs... or the equally starving and terrified Croat refugees from Drvar who were resettled in burning villages? I sure could have used their help!

I concur with your point about being stuck in an unequal Federation, and I don't blame them for being resentful. And I think everyone who wants to return to their homes, wherever, should be allowed. I'm sorry to hear about Bos. Brod. I thought that town was clear for return. The Americans were there. What happened?

54 posted on 06/10/2005 5:03:27 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: Diocletian

Oh, one last comment. The Cardinal called for dialogue about the problem, because the the "only alternative is war". And he is right. So long as the Croats feel isolated and discriminated against in BiH, there is a festering sore which could erupt in war. No one likes to be the marginalised minority, especially in that part of the world! And the Federation has put the Croats in just such a position. It is truly in the interests of longterm peace to assist the Croat population in BiH, as well as the Muslim and Serb populations. I truly hope that all will be allowed to return. What's happened with Drvar? I felt so sorry for the Croat refugees from there. What a h*ll they went through!


55 posted on 06/10/2005 5:16:16 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: wonders
Wonders: How can you expect clergy and lay to bend over backwards after what they went through in 1991? It greatly upsets me that many people from outside were not there in the early days of the war and do not have the full context of what went on and why feelings are the way that they are.

I hope that you extend these same criteria to the Serbs and their clergy.

56 posted on 06/10/2005 5:25:42 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: wonders
The Brits ran Drvar and effectively impeded any support from Croatia or BiH Croats so as to ensure Serb supremacy in the town...the town was majority Croat while the Serbs had the villages, but even the town is Serb now.
57 posted on 06/10/2005 5:26:53 AM PDT by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
Dio, I understand that there was much suffering in 1991 by Croats (and by Serbs and by Hungarians and other minorities). I understand the feelings. But so long as "collective guilt" is the order of the day, there can be nothing but division (and we know who is the author of division, as opposed to who is the Author of Unity). The Church should not encourage "collective guilt" but rather its opposite. The Church should tread the higher ground, not be swayed from its True Message by "feelings".

Yes, whenever I hear of a Serb Orthodox priest preaching what I consider to be against Christ's teachings I have and will speak out, too (although I am a Catholic and not an Orthodox, so it's more my business to be concerned about the Catholic Church). The only time I am aware of seeing and hearing a Serb Orthodox priest participate in propaganda with my own eyes and ears was when Serb Orthodox priest was broadcast by RSK Knin showing that picture of the poor burnt Croat baby from BiH who was killed by Muslims saying it as a Serb baby killed by Croats. (All sides used the picture of that baby, claiming it was theirs. You've probably seen it.)

Dio, I know that I must seem very hard on the Croats to you. Perhaps I am. I am also very hard on the RSK. Two of the finest people I have ever known are Croats, and one is half Croat, half Serb. I don't believe in collective guilt.

58 posted on 06/10/2005 5:40:17 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: Diocletian

Oh, I am sorry to hear that about Drvar. Those poor, poor people!


59 posted on 06/10/2005 5:42:10 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: wonders

I certainly don't subscribe to collective guilt either since that is a dangerous thing. My father's godfather was a Serb whom we saved during WW2 and who returned the favour by saving my grandfather and his brother in May 1945 from execution.


60 posted on 06/10/2005 5:45:18 AM PDT by Diocletian
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