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Yes, Americans will Do Those Jobs
boblonsberry.com ^ | 06/03/05 | Bob Lonsberry

Posted on 06/03/2005 6:12:35 AM PDT by shortstop

Can we just put this lie to rest once and for all?

I'm talking about that nonsense you hear whenever anybody discusses illegal immigration.

The one about how we need illegal aliens because they do the jobs that Americans won't. The variation on it is the racist tripe from the Mexican president that illegal aliens do jobs that not even black Americans will do.

It's all nonsense.

Americans would gladly do those jobs -- if the bosses weren't crooks.

And anybody who employs an illegal alien is a crook. And a traitor and a backstabber.

The illegals are one type of problem, the people who employ them are another. One group should be sent back to Mexico, the other should be sent to jail.

I'm not kidding. The damage done to American strength and American prosperity by the combination of illegal workers and illegal bosses is incalculable. The love of money and the putting of profit over patriotism is a glaring moral indictment of the people who hire illegal aliens.

But back to the jobs Americans won't do.

That theory ignores the realities of the free market. It denies the fundamental nature of supply and demand.

Here's an example. Let's say I've got a pile of dog crap I want cleaned up. Let's say I'm willing to pay somebody to clean that pile of dog crap up for me.

Now, cleaning up dog crap is not a particularly pleasant thing. It tends to stink, and you have to bend over, and it's gross and revolting.

People don't like doing it.

But you want to hire it done. So let's say you stand there with a dollar in your hand and say that you'll pay somebody a dollar to clean up the dog crap.

Well, in all likelihood, people are going to walk right on by. You can wave your buck until the cows come home and nobody's going to bite.

That's because the free market is at work. The market is determing the worth of a product or service -- picking up dog crap -- and weighing it against the available wage. Simply put, it's not worth it to people to mess with stinky crap for a dollar.

So how do you respond to it?

Well, in the free-market world, you up the ante. You offer two dollars for the job. And if that doesn't get any takers you raise it to $3, or $5 or $10. At some point, somebody will agree to your terms and you will give them the money and they will clean up your dog crap.

That's the free market. That's the capitalism beneath all economic freedom. People will do anything, you just have to pay them enough. That's how the price of labor is set, just as the price of any other commodity or product is set. It all comes down to what the market will bear.

And the reason that illegal aliens flock to jobs Americans seem to ignore is because the employers are violating not just the laws of our land, but the laws and morality of the free market. Through a willingness to work below legal and prevailing wages, and because many employers pay them under the table, avoiding taxes and insurance, the cost of illegal labor is substantially below what the free market would price it at.

It becomes an odd shell game in which the real costs of employing illegal aliens is borne not by the employer, but by society.The jobs pay below the market level, and are below what is necessary to support a family. Welfare and free services and unpaid-for health care make up the difference -- with every dollar coming out of the taxpayer or the consumer's pocket.

The reason Americans don't take those jobs is because the employers won't let them. The employers do better hiring illegals, ending up with less expensive labor and less obligation to employees.

Unfortunately, it also guts our country, our security and our economy.

But people will take those jobs. They will gladly take them.

But they will have to pay what the market demands. They will have to pay legally. They will have to pay honestly.

They will have to give up the crutch of illegal labor. They will have to be capitalists, not crooks.

Americans will pick lettuce and fry fries and clean toilets and pave roads and milk cows.

You just have to pay them what the work is truly worth.


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aliens; illegal; immigrantlist; immigration; lonsberry
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To: Regulator

Yeah I do. Thats why I asked the question knowing you can't truthfully answer it. If its so great Mr. American, they why don't you pick melons?


81 posted on 06/03/2005 10:20:32 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: Bommer
BS. Pure BS.

The illegals get paid under the table. That $7 hour paid to a Guatemalean day-laborer is untaxed. Legit citizens have problems taking that kind of pay -- they fear the wrath of the IRS, at the least.

If they took the job and paid tax on they'd be exposing their employeer to scrutiny! A double risk. The employeer doesn't want you working for him if you are going to report the income. He might even get a tad upset about it.

Say an employeer keeps both types -- some do. Disguises the books a bit. But after taxes Honest Joe American gets $5.50 an hour, and and after no taxes illegal Juan Guatelamalen gets $7. No so happy is Honest Joe. And some Juans laugh at him for making so pequeno.

And you deny the honest free-market, instead celebrating the thief's. You remind when I worked on the rental truck fleet of an Italian Bakery. A number of the drivers would come around offering to sell (1) dozens of pounds of meat (2) new stereo equipemnt in boxes (3) new furniture sets, right off the truck. The fruit of hijacks.

I never bought any, and told them not to keep offering the hot stuff to me.

Most, by far, Amercians do not want to work illegally.

82 posted on 06/03/2005 10:24:14 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Bommer
Yeah I do

Once more, junior. No, you don't get it.

Now go back to your comic books.

83 posted on 06/03/2005 10:31:02 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Bommer
You're stooging for the "jobs Americans won't do" idiocy. The answer is right here in the thread, but you won't pay attention to it. There's more to the answer, though. Conglomerates own our farms today. They're not typically family-owned anymore. Politicians, starting with Democrats during the Great Depression in the 1930s, aligned with big business to drive out the little farmers.

Thomas Jefferson wrote:

The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. The small landowners are the most precious part of a state.

Your debating opponent doesn't work on a farm (presumably). Why not? Because illegal labor is available at a pittance. Your debating opponent couldn't make a living for his family on such wages. No one can. And what would Thomas Jefferson think of today's statistics? He'd be appalled, since the answer is buried in a century-long effort to abolish the family farmer.

Small, agricultural landowners are more and more rare today. Our political nightmare is rooted in this shift toward urban voters. Thomas Jefferson predicted it. Open borders and illegal immigrant advocates only encourage it. Multinational corporations that own these lands on which laborers labor for a pittance could care less.

84 posted on 06/03/2005 10:31:41 AM PDT by John Filson
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To: John Filson

Don't listen to the "kneel before the altar of the free market" crowd. They'll call you a socialist and a protectionist.

But the bottom line is it is THEY who are supporting the "outsourcing" of our nation's sovereignty and security all so CEOs can make a few more bucks.


85 posted on 06/03/2005 10:37:14 AM PDT by gonewt
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To: Regulator; Bob; econ_grad
As Maxwell Smart might say, the old "five dollars for a head of lettuce" trick! I've still not heard a rational explanation of this pseudo-phenomenon. I even asked our friend econ_grad about it last weekend when (s)he posted on another thread that the cost of food would rise by a factor of five unless illegal aliens were used as labor. I didn't get a chance to respond at the time, as I spent the afternoon out in the world and away from the computer, and by the time I returned, the thread was locked because of some sort of flamewar took place. So I'm pinging econ_grad, as well as the two people on this thread who ask the same question that I did, and for clarity's sake, I'll quote econ_grad's response to me from that thread:

This is what they mean by little knowledge being dangerous. Wage is not the only labor cost. You have to factor in things like worker's comp, insurance, social security, etc. Not to mention that you constantly have to worry whether your local labor is unionizing, and then you have to deal with that. But, you probably have never run a business so you have no idea what the true costs of all these things, including headache, are.

Okay, well...first off, posting my opinion on an Internet forum is not "dangerous," at least compared to politicians who create bad policies, so to make that remark is rather...what was the word you used? Oh yeah: "patronizing." And yes, I realize fully well that wage is not the only labor cost - one of the benefits for employers who hire illegals is that they don't pay medical or dental benefits. This is why I was interested in reading a proper breakdown of the costs, especially given your claim of possessing a degree in economics and the expertise that claim implies. The response I got instead is a broad generalization of what goes into running a business, without any real specifics, that did nothing to further the discussion.

And for the record, I do in fact run a business. One-man operation. It is in the beginning stages, so I am still working another job to finance it. My only employees are a lawyer and an accountant. Anything else I need (stationery, for example), I contract out. I have no reason at this time to hire anyone else, but should that day come, I won't be hiring illegal aliens.

So once again, I ask: can you explain exactly how increasing labor to a legal minimum wage will result in the cost of food or other services rising at such a high level. Be specific, please. And save the patronizing remarks for someone else. I'm genuinely interested in a proper discussion, and will return your respectful responses in kind. Thank you.

86 posted on 06/03/2005 10:39:28 AM PDT by cartman90210 ("Sorry kids, those people from the future will do the same job for 25 cents!")
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To: John Filson
Curious that the open borders/illegal immigration advocate crowd is resorting to the "union activist" label for anyone who dares to question the wisdom of their agitprop.

Cause they got tired of slinging the word "racist".

87 posted on 06/03/2005 10:41:12 AM PDT by ozarkgirl
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To: cartman90210
There isn't any point in rational discussion with most of the ideologues here. Essentially most of the opinions on this forum are from the perspective of the 'anarcho-capitalists' , and virtually every argument they dredge up is just recycled dreck from 50 years of that philosophy being batted around. IOW, they ain't got nothin' new to say.

Suffice to say this: Football has rules; baseball has rules; every game on Earth is defined by its rules. The American economy's rules are defined by its people - assumptively for their benefit. Restricting competition for jobs to members of the team - i.e., citizens - is one of the rules. That is clearly to the benefit of the team members. People who break that rule are....cheating.

And that's all they are: cheaters. And cheaters get thrown out of the game.

88 posted on 06/03/2005 10:59:10 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator

Still wont answer? BWAHHH!


89 posted on 06/03/2005 11:02:48 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: John Filson
"You're a sellout. Admit it. Are you paid to advocate these destructive positions here?"

He's just doing the job real Americans don't want to do.

90 posted on 06/03/2005 11:03:39 AM PDT by monkeywrench (http://ciudadano.presidencia.gob.mx/peticion/peticion.htm -Tell Vicente)
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To: bvw
Most, by far, Amercians do not want to work illegally.

Oh yeah! Thats why the IRS primarily goes after hispanics right? Please! Thats the most ignorant thing I've heard! Talk to a waiter or waitress or (in your case) hooker and ask them if they are 100% truthful in thier claiming income in tips!

91 posted on 06/03/2005 11:07:37 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: Bommer

Your mother was a hooker, did I hear you say that right? How much did she charge? $7 an hour? Or maybe $10.50 with dental and extra benfits, eh?


92 posted on 06/03/2005 11:12:32 AM PDT by bvw
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To: Bommer
Answer what? Your inane juvenile retorts?

Like I said, kid: You still don't get it.

And you got nothing new to say. So why bother talking?

93 posted on 06/03/2005 11:16:09 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator

Because you can't. You try to justify picking melons as a job you would even do, but you won't because its beneath you! Why don't you face the facts that you are the one that hasn't a clue as to what your talking about!


94 posted on 06/03/2005 11:19:32 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: Bommer

One more time...you don't get it.


95 posted on 06/03/2005 11:25:33 AM PDT by Regulator
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To: Regulator

Yeah I do! now go pick me a melon!


96 posted on 06/03/2005 11:26:24 AM PDT by Bommer
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To: shortstop
Part of my job is making sure we don't have illegals on the payroll and going through due dilligance that none of our contractors or subcontractors use illegal labor.

I also verify to make sure none of my tenants are illegals either, but I've got to be extra careful or the city will accuse of discrimination.

97 posted on 06/03/2005 11:30:29 AM PDT by Sonny M ("oderint dum metuant")
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To: Bommer

Perhaps if you take away all that welfare and much of the disability cr@p and these folks get hungry enough those jobs may not look so bad.


98 posted on 06/03/2005 11:31:51 AM PDT by Isabelle
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To: Bommer
Only if they paid $9.50 an hour with medical and dental benefits!

It's a huge liberal myth that illegals work for $.12/hour. Just for the sake of research, stop by Home Depot or any place where they congregate and troll for Johns....erm...I mean employers, and ask how much to do a little work. Most will say $10/hr. They ain't cheap.

99 posted on 06/03/2005 11:35:09 AM PDT by Bella_Bru (In Mercuristan, such questions are not tolerated.)
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To: Regulator

Forget arguing with him. You're not gonna get in the way of his subsidies.


100 posted on 06/03/2005 11:38:51 AM PDT by monkeywrench (http://ciudadano.presidencia.gob.mx/peticion/peticion.htm -Tell Vicente)
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