Robbie Gordon of NASCAR Will Not Drive IRL Races Against Danica Patrick, Citing Weight Advantage

National Review Magazine: The Corner ^ | 6/1/05 | KJ Lopez

[Howlin]

I see YDH had to call in the big dogs to defend her honor, eh?

Stalk her? She's damn hard to miss with all her self-rightous Holier than thou pontificating.

Tell me, does truth EVER enter into ANY conversation you're involved in?

[LaraCroft]

"Like I said, I just try to ask myself if God would approve of that kind of attire. "

Also ask yourself if God would approve of your name calling.

remember that you may be the only Bible some people read.

[BykrBayb]

Not from your side of the conversation, but I'm used to that.

[Howlin]

Well, see there, we've actually accomplished something: you don't recognize the truth when you see it in writing.

[lara]

It's sad when you have to defend yourself to so called conservatives. I agree with you.

[BykrBayb]

LOL, this from a woman who, well, it's not worth getting into it with you. I'll just walk away, shaking my head, like so many others do.

[Howlin]

Your posts are as vacuous as they are void of the truth.

And if I'd had the things said about me that you have had said about you, I wouldn't be casting any stones.

[BykrBayb]

Let's put it this way. You're no Buckhead.

[Walkin Man]

http://www.indymotorspeedway.com/danica.htm

DROOL..............

Yesss! Danica can drive my race car anytime! :)

[MarkL]

With the way race cars suck down fuel, and all the science behind their aerodynamics weight isn't an advantage at all

Actually, weight is extremely important. The air effects create a downforce at speed, allowing the car to be lighter. Light weight is what's important when in comse to accelleration and braking.

While I don't know what the ratio is in the case of 4 wheelers, but when it comes to motorcycles, every 5 pounds of weight eliminated is roughly equal to increasing engine power by 1 HP. So, if I were to go motorcycle racing at 200#, and my buddy Shane only weighs 150, when it comes to accelleration, if we were on the same bike, he would have roughly the same advantage as an additional 10 HP. And braking is quite a bit easier on lighter bikes as well.

Mark

[Diva Betsy Ross]

If you want to see something interesting for the sport - how about this suggestion -

Danica challenges Robbie Gordon to 4 qualifying laps in an Indy car - with weights set equal.

Robbie is a great driver, (keeping in mind the level these folks are playing at) but he was never as fast as Danica, and certainly isn't now. She was as fast as anyone else out there, except maybe Weldon. He had them all covered by the end of the race.

I'm surprised in the discussion of her accident - which may or may not have been her fault (though rookieness and a rookie mistake do tend to go together) - but no one has brought up the "Spin and Win" Danny Sullivan - similar?

And anyone surprised that a top flight race driver appears ego centric has not been following real top flight race drivers. Some may be better mannered in front of cameras, or may actually be well mannered, but watch the double standard - most of these guys are egomaniacs - all but a pre-requisite for the job.

She drove a great race for a rookie. Shes a fast race driver - and she's got spunk - kept her cool after stalling and then after the spin - going back out and running at the limit - that is the courage people should be talking about.

The photos were far from tasteful - she needs a new PR manager. But a lot of these guys will do anything to get a car - maybe that was her position.

Diva's Husband

[Diva Betsy Ross]

I agree 100%. She is a fast young driver. She may be a great talent. But she got more attention than a fast young male would have gotten - no question.

That said - I would like to see an analysis of the advantage of 50lbs weight in an Indycar - these cars (at the top) were very closely matched. ANY advantage would be significant. (Not that I agree with Robbie G - his beef should be with the spec setters - all cars should be same (minimum) weight with driver aboard.)

I think she is fast. Diva Betsy Ross may freak on me - but she reminds me of M. Schumacher a lot more than Mears. Steely perserverence. Holding the lead after the spin showed guts of a "champion" level.

If I had to pick a driver to drive for me for the next 5 years it would be her. She is fast.

Diva's Husband

[Diva Betsy Ross]

0.8 mph is actually quite a large difference in a series with semi spec cars and engines.

For us without access to the real data - if the car is 5 mph faster empty vs full (guestimate), and holds 40 gallons of fuel @8 lbs/gallon (320 lbs) then advantage = 5/320 = .016mph/lb. Give a 50 lb weight advantage gives 50x.016 = .8 mph.

I guestimated that speed difference empty vs full - but this was my first guess (I did not fudge to reach (.8 mph).

Larger advantage no one has brought up is smaller cockpit/improved aero package. Not sure what if anything they changed on her car. But most race car drivers are on the wiry end of the scale (not counting sedan drivers like Nascar) just to fit.

Note I'm not siding with the whiner Gordon, but 50 lbs does appear to be an advantage - but a fair one within the rules. And Penske would have done it if he thought of it.

Diva's Husband

[numberonepal]

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.

[retrokitten]

I've been on 2 years and I didn't know there was a photo album. Do you have a link?

Of course! I FR mailed it to you.

[yellowdoghunter]

It's sad when you have to defend yourself to so called conservatives. I agree with you.

Yes, it is....but saying what is right is not always popular.....ya know the saying...calling evil good and good evil..... I hope she never again poses for pictures like that...it is disgraceful.

[discostu]

Actually ground force holds the car to the ground, keeping it from becoming a temporary and uncontrolled plane. Ground force is your friend, it's one of the interesting battles of racing, the higher (lighter) a vehicle rides the faster it will go, but the lower (heavier) it rides the more control you have over it. Race cars now generate ground force that is multiples of their actual weight, this is necessary at 200 MPH to avoid tragic accidents, so 5 pounds here or there just isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Yeah when you're dealing with the level of horsepower of your average street vehicle 5 pounds can make a difference, 1 HP plus or minus is big. These are race cars, they scoff at the HP of our street vehicles. And of course in bike racing you're dealing with tiny tiny vehicles, many of which weigh less than the driver so obviously the weight of the driver matters much more since you're talking about a significant fraction of the overall weight of the vehicle. 50 pounds is not a significant fraction of the overall weight of an IRL or NASCAR car.

[discostu]

if the average speed of a race is outside of caution is 180 MPH then .8 mph is less than 1/2 of 1% of the speed everybody is running at. That's isn't large, you'll get a better push for passing from the regular drafting, or waiting until your tires are low on rubber, or tank is low on fuel.

Notice you had to "guestimate" how much faster a car is with an empty tank than full, that is NOT real data. If you've got really real data bring it, I'd love to see it.

The cockpit is entirely inside the vehicle (except for the roll bar) and shouldn't be affecting the aero package in the slightest. No advantage there.

If 50 pounds is an advantage than chubby cheek Gordon should go on a diet. The reality is that at race speeds you're dealing with such drastic abuses of physic 50 pounds isn't going to make an appreciable difference. Yes you might get a miniscule increase to top speed, possibly another miniscule increase to fuel efficiency, you'll also get a miniscule decrease to ground force and thus a miniscule lowering of safe cornering speed. In the end you have a handful of miniscule and contradicting effect normalizing to no real effect one way or the other. There's a lot of money to be made in racing, if 50 pounds granted a useful advantage Penkse would have thought of it and switched to a bunch of jockeys with shaved heads. These people spend a lot of time in the simulator figuring out every little thing they can do for an advantage, there's no way nobody thought "what about a lighter driver".

[knightshadow]

Hmmmm...if we validate Robbie Gordon on this, here are some potential headlines and quotes we might expect to see:

"PISTONS TO PROTEST IF EAST FINALS LOST; CITE SHAQ'S UNFAIR HEIGHT, WEIGHT ADVANTAGE" 'Nobody under the net should be allowed to be bigger than me' - Rasheed Wallace.

"MARTINEZ DEMANDS ERA STAT PRO-RATE; SAYS WON'T PITCH AGAINST ASTROS UNTIL CLEMENS HURLS 80 FEET DISTANT FROM PLATE" 'Come on...he couldn't throw that fast without his unfair muscle size." - Pedro Martinez.

"MANNING WANTS CULPEPPER TO PLAY WITH LEG WEIGHTS, OR HE'LL QUIT NFL" 'Everyone knows Black guys run faster. So he completes a few more passes off the scramble just because he's darker than me. Why should I have to compete against that?" - Peyton Manning.

"RUTTER REFUSES JEOPARDY PLAYOFF AGAINST JENNINGS; IQ GAP TOO GREAT" - I know I'm the only undefeated Jeopardy champ and Jennings lost once, but his IQ is 3 points higher than mine. Either they handicap my score or I'm out."

- knightshadow.

[MarkL]

Sorry, I guess I wasn't as clear as I meant to be. In high performance driving, when the vehicles are pretty evenly matched, top speed isn't as important as being able to change speed faster. I meant to post that in motorcycles, 5 pounds in weight is equal at about a 1 HP advantage in acceleration, and there's a corresponding increase in the rate of braking with reduced weight aw well. This allows the driver or rider to brake later, and hopefully being able to keep higher speeds through the turn, which then gives you an additional advantage coming out of the turns.

Most of the racing cars and bikes are able to hit and maintain top speeds that are pretty close to each other. But it's being able to "out-brake" the competition (being able to wait longer before starting to brake), and out-accellerate, coming out of the turns that will win races. And that's where the weight reduction comes in very handy.

Mark