Posted on 05/29/2005 3:58:59 PM PDT by Para-Ord.45
Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.
Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?
I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams
Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728
"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught
"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jefferson
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191
"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546
Not true. They simply do not believe in revealed religion. However one of the tenants of Deism is that God's benevolence is self-evident. Therefore whatever happens after death, while unknown, cannot be bad.
I drink, too :-). I just didn't, offhand, know anything about Madison that would explain unorthodox religious view. I assume he was Church of England.
Did I miss anybody? :-}
ANd most modern Americans who spout that crap don't understand Deism -and do not know American History.
I think you have to be careful with this. My understanding is that he was required by law to attend. (which does not mean that he would not have attended by choice, but just that he had no choice)
ML/NJ
All of those quotes are taken out of context.
As for the overall context and meaning, well, you've got a lot of reading to do. :)
It's quite a leap to read these quotes and come to a conclusion that they somehow 'hated' God.
I don't see how these quotes suggest a hatred for God.
Why would an atheist throw those quotes at you? Neither Jefferson, Adams, Franklin or any of the others denied the existance of God. Even to hate God presupposes that there is a God to hate. Your atheist friend should find no words of comfort in the writings of those Founding Fathers. In fact, they make his arguments look rather silly.
annie --problem is Jeffeson produced his wee little book --
as a means of introducing Christianity to the American Indians. In reading the letters he wrote to Benjamin Rush, and Joseph Priestly , and Trumbull He had no intention of his Life and Morals of Jesus Christ be considered another
Gospel.He did question the doctrine of the Trinity-- but
according to a Recent Barna poll too many of of our modern Preachers/Priests question the fundamental doctrines of
Christianity.(like the virgin birth, the resurection etc.)
That simply isn't true, of the founding fathers that signed the declaration only a handful were possibly deists. That is bad history they teach in our public schools. The "common man" that went to war for our freedoms were God fearing men, Christians.
The Constitution IS the supreme law of the USA.
In John Adam's 1774 commentary, Novanglus: A history of the Dispute with America, from its Origin, in 1754, to the Present Time. In tit Adams admonished the clergy to speak out regarding public error, saying:
"It is the duty of the clergy to accommodate their discourses to the times, to preach against such sins as are most prevalent, and recommend such virtues as are most wanted. For example, if exorbitant ambition and venality are predominant, ought they not to warn their hearers against those vices? If public spirit is much wanted, should they not inculcate this great virtue? If the rights and duties of Christian magistrates and subjects are disputed, should they not explain them, show their nature, ends, limitations, and restrictions, how much soever it may move the gall of Massachusetts."
On July 1, 1776 speaking before the Continental Congress John Adams said:
"Before God, I believe the hour has come. My judgment approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope in this life, I am now ready here to stake upon it. and I leave off and I began, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now, and Independence for ever!"
On June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, John Adams wrote:
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles inn which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite... And what were these general Principle? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.
Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
In a letter dated Nov. 4, 1816, John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson:
"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..."
On October 7, 1818, John Adams wrote, telling Thomas Jefferson of his wife's impending death:
"Now, sir, for my grief's! The dear partner of my life for 54 years as a wife and for many more as a lover, now lies in extremis, forbidden to speak or to be spoken to... If human life is a bubble, no matter how soon it breaks, if it is, as I firmly believe, an immortal existence, we ought patiently wait the instruction of the great Teacher.
I am, Sir, your deeply afflicted friend,
John Adams"
That will have to do for now since I don't feel like typing out a bunch of Jefferson and Franklin too. Hope it helps some.
Jefferson's main criticism of Christianity was of the "tricks" he believed had been played with the gospels over the centuries.
On this point, I believe he was right.
Tricks?? Jefferson went through many stages in life and he also wrote extensively about his thoughts. I must ask how a person could believe in Jesus as Messiah and really believe that the gospels have been "fixed". If you do not believe the 4 gospels you might as well though out the bible in it's entirety.
The very notion of a Deist Church defeats the whole purpose of Deism itself. I think that's straight out of Deism.org.
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