Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?

none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

[Para-Ord.45]

Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.

Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

[hosepipe]

[ Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists. ]

Two percent of the the 100 founding fathers were Deists..
(for the cypher impaired)->> like two(2) II, dos ..

[StonyBurk]

"Most extraordinary(and wholly unexplained)is the fact thatArticle 11 of th eBarlow translationwith it's famous phrase"the Government of the United Statesof America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."Does Not exist at all.There is NO Article 11 .The Arabic Text which is between Article 10 and 12is in a form a letter crude and
flamboyant and withal quite unimportant,from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli.How that Script cameto be written and regaurded,as in the Barlow Translation as Article 11 of the treaty as written is a mystery and seemigly must remain so.Nothing in the Diplomatic corresponsenceof the time throws any light whatever on the point. " -Treaties and Other International Agreements of the
United States of America,1776-1949ANd as to the United States of America being established a "Christian nation"The United States Supreme Court on Feb.29,1892 decided the Church of the Holy Trinity v. the United States 143 US 457,36 L.Ed.226,12 s.Ct.511 ". . . These and many other matters which might be noticed,add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.. . " Several other Court rulings mention
we are a Christian people, or similar terms.

[Old Professer]

America, along with a majority of the world's cultures lives comfortably ignorant of the direct evidence that precludes the existence of supernatural beings; god, as a domesticating influence works extremely well in times of plenty, but when faced with diametric needs and limited resources, serves as the spark for utter chaos and turmoil.

I expect this comment to be radically flamed but God is the only hope of those who refuse to live uncomforted.

[clyde asbury]

.. (for the cypher impaired)->> like two(2) II, dos ..

Thanks for that. I will add it to the other messages from those who didn't bother to read the thread.

[hosepipe]

[ But Jefferson, Franklin and Madison didn't "hate" God. They sometimes looked askance at religion but you won't find any evidence of a "hatred" for God. ]

Right.. A REAL god does not need religion... why would he/it.?.
BUT a psuedo-God does need religion.. Religion legitimizes it.. and forms the basis for "the clergy".. which a psuedo-God also needs.. and the clergy demands a building(church, mosgue, temple, etc.) as headquarters, or a branch.. of "the corporation".. which they run as CEO or COO..

A real creator doesn't need all that.. to communicate with its creation.. unless that creator is a mental figment or psychological construct....

I knew a teenager that worshiped his car.. and gave rides to his congregation.. makeing him clergy to his CAR.. and the car was God to him and church to the congregation.. even LESS valid religions exist than that..

I like Jesus.. because he "DISSED" every religious authority of his time.. WHAT A GUY.. yet he tolerated civil authority as civil servants of satan.. i.e. the kingdoms of this world.. Wooo what does that make "clergy".?. He trashed clergy un-mercifully.. according to the new testament..

[hosepipe]

I read the quotes and should have reponsed to Para-Ord.45..
A few posts down from post one.. Sorry..

[mugs99]

Why do you want to play this game?
The hero you quote was a great American patriot, but he spent his life defending Calvinism, and was not unbiased. That's ok by me. Calvinists evolved into the Unitarian Faith. Unitarians are Deists who go to church.

Bancroft was the son of the Reverend Aaron Bancroft who was the Calvinist minister of the Second Parish Church in Worcester. After returning to the US in 1783 he preached his Arminian doctrine and became president of the American Unitarian Association.

There is much good history in your sources, but there is also much bias. History is always biased by the author. That was true then and it is true today. I could quote from other 'celebrated' sources that give differant views, but I prefer not to play the copy and paste game.
...

[Matchett-PI]

"There is much good history in your sources, but there is also much bias"

Apples and oranges. I gave you the history. You just don't like it.

[clyde asbury]

I read the quotes and should have reponsed to Para-Ord.45..

Hey, no problem. I'm in a flame-retardant suit.

[oldbrowser]

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Is it possible that when Adams was saying "Christianity" he meant "catholics", and that other Christians at the time were referred to as "protestants"?
Also, maybe he was referring to the various congregations as being too ritualized. Could he have been an precursor to modern day evangelicals ?

[mugs99]

There is NO Article 11

ROTFLMAO!!!
Would you like me to freepmail you the complete treaty? Or...You could just look it up yourself. It's in the National Archives.
...

[rock58seg]

I for one believe that Walt Disney is a better role model than mohammed, (May he eternally eat pig dung)and any faith based on the writings of Disney would produce a better religion than the Islam cult.

[bmwcyle]

Men don't decide, God does. God is still in control.

[kalee]

bookmark

[Pelayo]

Can judges ignore laws and treaties passed by Congress and signed by the executive if they wish?

If they contradicted the Constitution, yes.

Where does the Constitution authorize an Air Force? Where does the Constitution make rape a criminal act punishable by certain penalties?

Wishful thinking isn't gonna make your argument any stronger. The fact that you don't like that Federal Constitution as the "Supreme Law of the Land" isn't gonna make it anything but what it itself claims to be. Your arguments are spurious because they would not contradict the nature of the Constitution as supreme. If for example the Constitution forbade the creation of an Air force we couldn't have one without some type of amendment. But it does not forbid it, so its supremacy is not contradicted by such a law. Lets take the wording of Article VI Clause II and put it in a different context to see what I mean.

Article VI clause II "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding."

Lets make it read...

"That the ballgame shall be played is the supreme rule; and the players of every team shall be bound thereby, the inclement weather on any given day notwithstanding."

I'm sorry it conflicts with your wish that the states have sovereignty over their own constitutions and laws, but they don't.

[Pelayo]

-- Now you need to work on the irrational, ludicrous view you have about libertarians supporting authoritarian governments.

I could be described as a libertarian (i.e. a classical liberal), and am a supporter of monarchy as the kind of government historically most favorable to liberalism. Technically it collapsed because it was too liberal. Kings can't rule with draconian aplomb of republics, they are theoretically centralized but thats not the same thing as authoritarian.

[P_A_I]

-- Now you need to work on the irrational, ludicrous view you have about libertarians supporting authoritarian governments.

I could be described as a libertarian (i.e. a classical liberal), and am a supporter of monarchy as the kind of government historically most favorable to liberalism. Technically it collapsed because it was too liberal. Kings can't rule with draconian aplomb of republics, they are theoretically centralized but thats not the same thing as authoritarian.

Nothing you've written refutes my point on libertarian principles.

[mugs99]

You gave me opinion from various authors. Interesting but not factual documentation. Out of context and/or partial quotes do not prove or disprove anything. Best guess lists by various authors are not historical documentation. I can do the same, but choose not to. Many of the anti Christian quotes by founders were taken from letters that were more like a modern roast than the deep held beliefs of the men who made them at the time. Thomas Paine was openly hostile to Christianity, but most were not. Deists are not God haters or anti Christian.

Why are Christians so anti Deist? Are they God haters?
...

[Matchett-PI]

"You gave me opinion from various authors."

I gave you facts from primary documents. You deceive yourself.

[shellshocked]

Confusing church with God? Most founding fathers seem to have a dim view of organized religions as they knew of the history of the churches.