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Henry V’s Payroll Cuts Agincourt Myth Down to Size (French/English ratio wildly exaggerated)
The Sunday Times ^ | May 29, 2005 | Richard Brooks

Posted on 05/28/2005 5:51:42 PM PDT by quidnunc

The scale of Henry V’s triumph at Agincourt, which has been feted as one of the greatest victories in British military history, has been exaggerated for almost six centuries, a new book is to reveal.

The English and Welsh were still outnumbered, according to Anne Curry, professor of medieval history at Southampton University — but only by a factor of three to two. For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.

Curry is the first academic to untangle the true scale of Henry’s victory in 1415 by sifting through original enrolment records at the National Archives in London and the French Bibliothèque Nationale.

“The figures have been exaggerated over the centuries for patriotic reasons,” said Curry, whose book Agincourt: A New History will be published next month. “It was a myth constructed around Henry to build up his reputation as a king.”

Curry discovered there were more English and Welsh troops than previously thought, and far fewer on the French side. She was able to count the number of soldiers on both sides accurately because all were paid recruits. Their names and wages were recorded. She calculates that total numbers were about 8,000 on Henry’s side and 12,000 on the French.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at timesonline.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: agincourt; battleofagincourt; bookreview; charlesthemad; england; france; godsgravesglyphs; henryv; hundredyearswar; longbow; longbowmen; middleages; renaissance; revisionism; uk; worldhistory
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1 posted on 05/28/2005 5:51:43 PM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc

Does this mean the French won?


2 posted on 05/28/2005 5:53:21 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: quidnunc

3 posted on 05/28/2005 5:53:28 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: quidnunc

I thought not.


4 posted on 05/28/2005 5:53:42 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

No, but they now lost less pitifully but just as badly.


5 posted on 05/28/2005 5:55:13 PM PDT by dufekin (United States of America: a judicial tyranny, not a federal republic)
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To: quidnunc
For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.

What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

6 posted on 05/28/2005 5:57:24 PM PDT by Cowboy Bob (Question Liberalism)
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To: Cowboy Bob
To be more accurate - between 1415 and 1955.
7 posted on 05/28/2005 5:58:27 PM PDT by Cowboy Bob (Question Liberalism)
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To: quidnunc
“The figures have been exaggerated over the centuries for patriotic reasons,”
What agenda? I don't see an agenda?
8 posted on 05/28/2005 5:59:30 PM PDT by ProudVet77 (Warning: Frequent sarcastic posts)
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To: quidnunc

The French still got their butts kicked, a common thread in their history.


9 posted on 05/28/2005 5:59:31 PM PDT by Arkie2 (No, I never voted for Bill Clinton. I don't plan on voting Republican again!)
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To: dufekin
Oh well, give them a few more years, and we'll find out
that the French were equal in numbers and died valiantly nearly winning, then a few more and they will have all called it a tie
and negotiated a peace.
10 posted on 05/28/2005 6:00:10 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: martin_fierro
One leftover legend from Agincourt is that the French threatened to cut off the middle finger of every English longbowman, the essential finger for guiding the arrow to its target. The famous English longbows were made from the Yew tree and without this finger, the English would no longer be able to pluck their bows.

After the battle was over, the English gave the French the finger and told them they could still pluck Yew. In the foggy air of Agincourt and to the French ear, unfortunately, the "pl" sounded like "F" and, thus, we are left with that crude expression and gesture even today.

11 posted on 05/28/2005 6:00:31 PM PDT by Vigilanteman (crime would drop like a sprung trapdoor if we brought back good old-fashioned hangings)
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To: Cowboy Bob

For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.
What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

They could have saved a lot of time by calling Vegas and
getting the line.


12 posted on 05/28/2005 6:01:39 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: quidnunc

As I recall, this battle pitted French knights against stout Englishmen armed with longbows. The French knights continued to charge against them all day and were basically picked off by the archers. At nightfall the French quit. Here is my question: Were the French knights paid recruits? This doesn't fit in with what a knight was.


13 posted on 05/28/2005 6:06:14 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends.)
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To: Cowboy Bob
Cowboy Bob wrote: (For the last 50 years historians have believed the odds were at least four to one.) What did historians believe were the the odds between 1451 and 1955?

According to the article inmitially the ratio was reported as 30-1, scaled back to 10-1 in the 16th century.

14 posted on 05/28/2005 6:08:01 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
Once a knight is enough.

Leni

15 posted on 05/28/2005 6:08:27 PM PDT by MinuteGal ("The Marines keep coming. We are shooting, but the Marines won't stop !" (Fallujah Terrorists)
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To: PatrickHenry; Right Wing Professor
does this mean Shakespeare must now be revised to read: "We few many, we happy band of brothers..."?
16 posted on 05/28/2005 6:11:46 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: Vigilanteman
One leftover legend from Agincourt is that the French threatened to cut off the middle finger of every English longbowman, the essential finger for guiding the arrow to its target. The famous English longbows were made from the Yew tree and without this finger, the English would no longer be able to pluck their bows. After the battle was over, the English gave the French the finger and told them they could still pluck Yew. In the foggy air of Agincourt and to the French ear, unfortunately, the "pl" sounded like "F" and, thus, we are left with that crude expression and gesture even today.

You're so bad.

17 posted on 05/28/2005 6:12:58 PM PDT by bad company ("A word to the wise ain't necessary -- it's the stupid ones that need the advice.")
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To: quidnunc
Henry: "The fewer men, the greater share of honour. God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more."

Westmoreland: "Anon, my lord, thou hasn't as few men as once thought. No longer canst thou proclaim we few--instead, thous't must proclaim we numerate but still not as many as the frogs."

Crowd: Anon, anon anon-on-anon!

18 posted on 05/28/2005 6:13:35 PM PDT by Jagman
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To: MinuteGal

As the knight said to another, when they stayed in the
castle of the gay king.

"Promise him anything, but give him our page."


19 posted on 05/28/2005 6:13:56 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

Actually, the French knights were mostly killed by
English Men-at-arms, the press of French trying to
gain glory meant that the first ranks could neither
turn or retreat, blocked in by those who came after them.
The English, were able to take them in flank and in brutal
hand fighting slaughtered them.
To the point the FRench were having to attack over the bodies of their slain, which made for even worse footing.
Many were captured for ransom, but when word came that the
french were attacking the van, the pages and wagons left
out side the fight , word was given to kill them so as to
prevent them returning to the fight.

A bloody business.


20 posted on 05/28/2005 6:20:08 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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