Posted on 05/25/2005 3:41:22 AM PDT by billorites
Well, think about it. How do you think PH keeps these threads going so long.
I don't doubt that you are "really sure of that".
When I was a kid, I was "really sure" that Santa Claus delievered the presents I found under the tree.
Be that as it may, there are a large number of self-admitted creationists who would strongly disagree with you. So I don't know why you're bothering to split hairs and play definitional games or play the No True Scotsman dodge.
Intelligent design, though, doesn't answer who or what is the intelligence behind the design. Nor does that intelligence have to be a god.
I didn't say that it did. Nonetheless, you'd have to be remarkably naive to deny that the vast majority of "ID supporters" believe that the "unnamed designer" is actually the Christian God as described in the Bible.
It really is a mathematical model speaking to the improbability of such a complex thing as living systems coming about accidentally,
Again, no, it is not. That is one of the tools the ID'ers try to use to argue their case, but (as I've already said), it's quite simply false to claim that ID "is" just a "mathematical model". It most certainly isn't.
and therefore having had to have been designed.
One. More. Time....
I know this is a difficult concept to creationists/IDers/whatever (it's not a difficult *concept*, just difficult for "certain people"), but even if you could disprove evolution entirely (by "probability" or any other means), it would *NOT* be the case that, as you say, "therefore having had to have been designed".
It just doesn't work that way. Evidence *against* one possible explanation does *NOT* count as evidence *for* any other possible explanation. Creationism is *not* the "default" explanation. It doesn't "win" by eliminating one possible explanation, just as evolution would not "win" if by some means it could be proven that God(s) don't exist. Even if you could somehow bring evolution crashing down as an explanation (and good luck with *that* one), the conclusion would not be "so God must have done it, QED", since it could still be the case that any number of other possible "natural" explanations that we haven't yet thought (as well as any number of other possible "unnatural" explanations that do not involve a "maker") might be responsible for life on Earth and we just haven't discovered it yet.
Evidence *against* one explanation is not evidence *for* another one that happens to be on the table, since *it* might be wrong as well. Only *positive* evidence *for* an explanation counts *for* that particular explanation. Period. End of story.
Probability arguments "against" evolution (and the ones I've actually seen have been bogus) is in no way -- repeat, *no* *way* -- repeat, *NO* *WAY* -- evidence *for* "ID" or "creationism" or whatever you want to call it. The same goes for evidence against any particular flavor of creationism -- that itself does not count as evidence *for* evolution. Nor should it.
Are we clear now, or are you still going to be confused about this straightforward concept?
Often a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other parts of the world, about the motions and orbits of the stars and even their sizes and distances,... and this knowledge he holds with certainty from reason and experience. It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn.
St Augustine of Hippo
Then what are they? Further results of natural selection and random mutation?
Let's try that on a test case, shall we? "The Hawiaan Islands are so complex that we can't build them, and therefore, that is evidence that they had to be built".
Nice try, but your reasoning is obviously faulty since it leads to a false conclusion.
Go take a logic course and then get back to us.
Intuitively, yes.
Logically, no.
It makes much more sense than "We can't build them, and therefore, that is evidence that they accidentally (mechanistically) came about."
If anyone actually *did* use that line of argument, I'd help you point out their fallacy to them.
But since no one does, you are quite welcome to take your Straw Man Fallacy and sit on it, hard. I'm getting tired of your falsehoods. If you dont' understand science, and clearly you don't, please do not attempt to put words in anyone's mouth, because you've made a number of insultingly false accusations here. Stop your misrepresentations.
The mathematical model supports the intuition.
No, actually, it doesn't. If you feel that it does, show me the math. Go for it. This should be a *lot* of fun.
It does not support the fallacious reasoning that they accidentally came about.
The evidence does, and the currently feasible mathematical analyses of the evidence indicates that it's hardly out of the question.
Go learn some science before you spread more lies about it. Seriously. A "Retired Army Chaplain" should not be proud of spouting frequent falsehoods.
Then what are they? Further results of natural selection and random mutation?
No, they are the results of creationists making simplistic and faulty calculations based on their poor knowledge (and in many cases, completely misunderstanding) of evolutionary biology.
Yes indeed, and they are evidence the Builder exceeds man to a great degree in many capacities.
We know about that glass.
Magrathian placemarker
I don't think you realize the awesome powers you are trifling with. Entire armies couldn't foreclose on Darwin Central. You'd never make it ashore. Fortress Galapagos is impregnable!
Are you saying mathematic calculations and probabilities are inappropriate tools for giving evidence of intelligence or design? Can you provide a brief example of their "simplistic and faulty calculations" in your own words?
Such an argument would be very weak indeed.
Indeed it is, which is why I wish our resident creationists would stop employing it so often.
As a biblical creationist I have not stated that my belief is "irrefutably true because it's something I happen to believe."
I didn't say that you did. Nor did I say that anyone else had.
I was referring mostly to the frequent habit of creationists of posting as fact their fantasies about how science is actually done, or what evidence does or does not exist in support of evolution, or how evolutionary postulates have been arrived at and verified, etc.
The creationists frequently just make up, based on nothing but their ignorant presumptions, fantasies about how evolutionary biology "might" be performed by its practitioners, and then the creationists become convinced that these fantasies are how science is *actually* done. They'll post them over and over again, with perfect certainty, and not a shred of realization that their fairy-tales about biology are based on nothing but their own ignorance, and not a bit of real familiarity with the topic they're spouting off about.
It's so common it's practically pathological. It's so common that I suspect that whatever the bizarre mental flaw might be which causes some people to mistake their presumptions for facts, it's also what causes them to *be* anti-evolution creationists in the first place, rather like how other people seem to have particular mental quirks which predispose them to become unshakable conspiracy nuts.
It is a set up no human intelligence has been able to duplicate, so it is not unreasonable for me to accept this as evidence of an Intelligent Designer.
Yet again, we see the "we can't build it, so it must have been built, QED" fallacy in action. Amazing.
We had a thread reach about 6000 posts or so if I remember right.
Sitting next to my Air Force One glass. :-)
It's rain elves! New "theory". :-)
1,000.
1,000.
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