Posted on 05/09/2005 5:30:34 AM PDT by tbritton
Schiavo findings won't be rushed
Despite conflicting calls for thoroughness and quick results, Jon Thogmartin won't let appeals from the public force his hand.
LARGO - People around the world have talked about the life and death of Terri Schiavo, but Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin will get the last word.
For the past month, he has been working on her autopsy. She has taken over his office and consumed his working hours. He appeared for an interview in blue scrubs, looking every bit the wiry medical examiner with his bald head and tiny wire-rimmed glasses.
"That's her and that's her," he says, pointing to piles of documents and boxes of slides stacked all over his office.
..
Thogmartin, 41, knows Schiavo's autopsy will probably be the most publicized of his career. He won't talk about it until he is done and estimates it will be two or three more weeks.
He has received hundreds of letters and e-mails about the brain-damaged woman who died March 31, 13 days after her feeding tube was removed. Many ask him to look for signs she wasn't brain-dead or signs of abuse, among the allegations made during the protracted battle between her parents and her husband over whether to keep her alive.
"They are of no consequence to me," says Thogmartin of the letters.
The lively Texan, publicity shy and fiercely protective of his wife's and child's privacy, is known for doing everything by the book. He denied requests from Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and her husband, Michael Schiavo, to allow their own pathologists to observe the autopsy.
"It is routine in cases of criminal importance to not allow any biased pathology advocates in the morgue," he said. "I'm the independent pathologist."
(Excerpt) Read more at sptimes.com ...
Of course, the autopsy is worthless.
That's never going to happen.
"Then we can proceed to build a stronger base of support among the right to life/pro-life supporters and, perhaps, convert opponents with clear, sensible arguments and facts"
Precisely because of the ABOVE and
because TOO many people in positions of power would be implicated.
YOU and ME both. They should have been the ones who had the h*** shocked out of them, by the STARVATION and DEHYDRATION of Terri Schindler. They didn't.
Their position is NOT compatible with Conservative thought. And I am NOT trying to stifle debate with that comment. I honestly believe it.
As I said when I first got on this forum, even the thinking of professed conservatives is tainted with Liberalism. I haven't changed THAT opinion.
"regardless of what one thinks about this case, IMO it's apparent there is a "death culture" (kevorkian, felos, et al) with an agenda that should be strongly opposed."
You're exactly right about the Death Culture. George Soros, the billionare, who pumped millions into the past the presidential election, to defeat Bush, has also thrown millions at the Euthanasia/Hemlock Society Agenda. Soros is using his $$$$'s to change our society.
Even Ted Turner would like to reduce the population of this planet by 2/3's. What gives these elitist the right to decide who lives and dies? It's a joke for people to think their government might want to prevent them from exercising their so called *Right to Die*. The truth is, there's more of a chance of the government, be it state or federal, eventually FORCING people to die.
I guess I should re-phrase that last sentence to say - The government has already FORCED a person to die - Terri Schiavo. Call it murder or euthanasia, it doesn't matter. Terri was healthy before they starved & dehydrated her to death. Living Wills will probably hasten others to die by signing a DNR statement. I doubt most will realize they might be signing away their organs or agreeing to starvation/dehydration.
"Dr. Wecht has been known to change his mind. Go back to the Vince Foster days.""
That's interesting. I didn't know Wecht had anything to say about Foster or I've forgotten.
"Why I ask you did they not want anyone to observe - that in itself is suspect."
I agree! So much about this whole case has been done in secret. That's the very thing that causes people to suspect the worst.
** It's all warped and so very wrong. **
I agree. It was wrong from the time Michael Schiavo Denied and Forbid normal, recommended therapy for a disabled, brain injured American Citizen. I have no doubt that Terri would have improved significantly with therapy. She was improving when therapy was stopped in 1992.
A PVS patient doesn't speak, recognize family members, and etc. Terri did those things early on. She was NOT PVS in many doctors opinions. The PVS diagnosis is used wrongly 40 percent of the time. Dr Ronald Cranford spent less than 45 minutes with Terri and prounced a death sentence on her head. He runs around the country deciding who lives and dies. How does a paid Doctor of Death have credibility with the court?
What happened to Terri was Wrong and millions of Americans know it, no matter how hard the MSM tried to say other wise.
"She was improving when therapy was stopped in 1992. "
So that alone showed he was UNFIT to have control over her.
Lying like that when they asked him what he would do with Terri, saying she would have Therapy. She looked so much better too before he shut her away in the darkness with no stimulation.
"A PVS patient doesn't speak, recognize family members, and etc."
EXACTLY, she was aware and that is what makes this even more horrific.
"Dr Ronald Cranford spent less than 45 minutes with Terri and prounced a death sentence on her head. He runs around the country deciding who lives and dies."
I am certain that this is why Greer selected him to spend the 45 minutes with her. He knew the type of Dr. Cranford was and this fit into the scenario he wanted. Didn't matter how many other qualified neurologists testified or gave sworn statements that she was not in a PVS. Greer even discounted the Neurologist for the Mayo Clinc!! They are disgusting both he and Cranford and EVIL.
" What happened to Terri was Wrong and millions of Americans know it, no matter how hard the MSM tried to say other wise."
Good Lord, I thought I would BARF listening to MSM especially that Abrams dude. They must own stock in hospices or something.
Courts are supposed to protect those who can not speak for themselves. Over and over again, Judge Greer FAILED and his rulings made the family... the blood family the enemy. Her Mom on Mother's Day was prevented from seeing Terri unless she paid the Guards to watch her, per MS. All of this, cruel treatment began and ended with Michael Schiavo. What an awful man he is and it just shows ya what money can buy. Ghouls to help him kill Terri.
It made no sense at all and the only thing that did make sense was that Michael wanted Terri dead, her parents to have nothing, not even her ashes. What a tragedy!! It's like stepping into an alternate reality. I feel so badly for Terri and for her family. My heart and my prayers are with them.
"Of course, the autopsy is worthless."
Just the final report to file it away. The End.
"Why is there denial about Terri's complicity when in fact it was determined in a court she had some?"
Blame the Victim time, eh?
Just to comment - How many prisoners are now being released due to progress in DNA? Were they determined Guilty in a Court of law? Courts can get it WRONG, ya know?
"They sent their symbolic martyrs, they used their children to be used by the hated media, but they never did anything to stop what was always presented as murder."
They were outside in protest of something they (we) believed was WRONG.
At least they did what was in their power to do. Hell, even today, when I fill my dogs water dish, I think of Terri. That my own dog was is treated better than Terri was is disgraceful.
" But if those who believed she was murdered and they were in Pinellas Park, then they watched and did nothing to prevent that murder. For 13 days they watched, and watched a................"
Yes we watched as they murdered Terri. You say you dont believe they murdered her. Well what exactly do you call what happened to Terri?
Termination?
First you blame her for her eating disorder now you blame those who did not fall on the sword.. whats up with that? We fall short of what expectations? Did they not arrest anyone attempting to enter?
It seems to me that you are having a hard time coming to terms with this. Everyone falls short for you........... fall on the sword, if you really believe in what you say? Sheesh.
I dont have a bible verse to quote here, I will just use your words. "Big whoop"
Attempting to enter? They arrests were all arranged and symbolic. Many who were arrested discussed how they told police exactly what they were doing before doing it?
This was on Sean Hannity's radio show, apparently March 21, 2005.
Sean: Doctor William Hammesfahr is with us... As a man who, according to one report I read... you spent, over TEN hours with Terri Schiavo, sir?
Dr.H: I spent about ten hours over three separate visits, yes.
Sean: Well first of all, welcome to the program, I know how busy you are doctor, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy day. And by the way, is it true that I read you were nominated for a Nobel prize?
Dr.H: Yeah, yea, in 1999, for work, for the type of therapy that we WANT to do with Terri, that should HELP with Terri in fact.
Sean: Are you as stunned as I am, that there has been NO rehab attempts in this case, that theres been... it seems theres been just BASIC care denied here. Is that a fair assessment on my part?
Dr.H: Its WORSE than basic care being denied. This woman has been subjugated to a horrible existance. She's had urinary tract infections, she's had massive overwhelming infections, that the husband has refused to give antibiotics for, and he had to give them to her after, against his written orders on the chart,
Dr.H: This woman went from, right before a malpractice settlement check was given to him, she went from walking with parallel bars and assistance, having physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy, speaking some words... to the state we see her now in the videotapes.
Sean: Can I ask you, have you read the affidavits at all of two women, Heidi Law, a nurse who said in fact that she witnessed Terri EAT on her own? That she actually FED her? And that another woman Carla Sauer Iyers, who basically said they were on orders, by the husband, NOT to give basic care to this woman? Are you familiar with these affidavits?
Dr.H: Yes I am
Sean: And apparently Michael used the term; "the "B"-word die?" quote, Are you familiar with that?
Dr.H: Right. Absolutely he did. That's what the nurses stated. And its not just them. Its quite a few other nurses around, stated that, in nursing homes and facilities. You know, he had a habit of moving her from facility to facility, when the facility... maybe I'm misreading her medical record, but it appears from her medical record, that there were nursing homes that wanted her to get treatment, he would then move her to another facility. Thats the way I interpret her record.
Sean: Well look, doctor, you have been nominated for a Nobel prize in your field, you're one of the BEST in what you do. This is your area of expertise. You, more that anyone else I have spoken to, probably knows more about this than any politician in Washington. You spent over TEN hours with this woman. Tell us what you see? Tell us what we can do? Tell us what is the condition?
Dr.H: What you can do, you need to get on the stick, to call congressmen and senators, thanking them for the great work that they did, and urging them to put this patient into protective custody so she can get help.
Dr.H: And if you're in Florida, you need to CALL the governor's office, you need to call the representatives here because this woman is not in coma, she's not in PVS. She's just disabled, and she's the subject of a family trying to save her life and bring her back home to them. and a husband who's trying to prevent that. A husband who lives with somebody else.
Dr.H: A husband who's been secretive about that. The way the family found out that that he lives with somebody else, is through the ahh... Michael's father died, and in the obituaries it was listed that Michael was survived by Michael, his significant other, and Michael's two children.
Dr.H: You need to... this is an issue where the state HAS to intervene. This is not a judiciary vs a state's rights issue, this is an issue where a TERRIBLE error is happening, its going to KILL somebody. And it is right for the government to intervene, and try to put this person into protective custody.
Sean: In your medical professional opinion, and I am not a medical doctor, but MY observation of this woman is that there is hope for her, when for example, the balloon, the way she follows the movement of the balloon, the way she seems to react to touch, and people's presence. Is this woman conscious on any level? or is she in this vegatetative state, as is being told us?
Dr.H: Oh no, she's COMPLETELY conscious, Shes NOT in a vegetative state. A vegetative state is a type of coma where you are unresponsive to the world. She is NOT unresponsive. She understands English, She understands language, she TRIES to communicate. She is NOT in coma. It has been COMPLETE mis-information.
Sean: Wait Wait Wait, I want to stop you here doctor, you're say, your ten hours with her, shes responsive directly to YOU, and understands what you say?
Dr.H: Absolutely! Shes not only responsive to ME, but if you look at the Cranford video, Dr. Cranford video on TerrisFight.org, this is a nuerologist thats actually COMPLIMENTING her on following commands. She is very responsive, and very aware of whats happening.
Dr.H: At one point, I was in her room, and I turned to her, and I said as I was leaving... it was a standard hospital room with a large window, and she was looking off to me, off to her left, and I turned to her and said... you know, she can't see it right now because she's blind, partly blind, I said, If you look out the window, you'd be able to see squirrels, and flowers, and all the rest...
Dr.H: With that she turned her ENTIRE BODY, and looked out the window, and started searching for the birds. And she IS partially blind, but she still did it.
Dr.H: If you look at her with her mother, she looks off into space, and then as her mother comes close on this famous video, she smiles at her Mother.
Dr.H: Well, its because she can only see within about 18 inches in front of her face. So she is listening like the blind person does, to figure out where people are in the room, and then as they come closer to her, THEN she can interact with them.
Dr.H: So this is a very very very aware, alive, vibrant individual, trapped in a body that is preventing her from communicating properly, but she's THERE, and she needs and deserves treatment.
Sean: Doctor, this is a stunning, stunning testimony you are giving... I mean, I have never heard anybody say it this directly, And you are the only person that I know that has spent this quality time with her... So basically what you are saying is by pulling this tube we are murdering someone who is alive, conscious and aware?
Dr.H: It is a vital need to get her under custody and away from these people who are trying to kill her. yes.
Dr.H: I--- don't want another lawsuit. (laughs) or a lawsuit from my client. Sean: Well, So don't say it then. Dr.H: So I wont. Sean: So, have you been sued over this issue? Dr.H: Oh, no no no no no. Sean: But in your professional opinion, Let me put it another way, and save you the legal fees. In your professional opinion, having examined her for over ten hours, you being a Nobel prize nominated physician, You are saying that this is a woman that is alive, that is aware? that could live? And what kind of improvements could she make in her life? Dr.H: Well I would expect with treatment, proper medical treatment, I would expect her to be able to talk again at some point, and to return to her family, and start to live her life again. Be able to go out, see movies, enjoy life. Dr.H: She can ALREADY eat and swallow now, the only reason she is not swallowing now is because of a judicial order. Its not that she is not swallowing. She CAN swallow. The only reason she is not being FED is because of a judicial order. She CAN eat and swallow.... So, she could certainly go out and enjoy restaurants, enjoy movies, and go out and enjoy LIFE again.
ping
Please, take a moment and answer the scriptural questions posed earlier. That to me would be more educational to me on the issues I have with those at Pinellas Park.
You offered: "I did not see this interview, althought I did see many on Sean's show.This was conducted on Sean Hannity's radio show, March 21, 2005.
You asked, "Please, take a moment and answer the scriptural questions posed earlier." I shall leave Scripture queries to those who I consider far more educated in the Scriptures than I. When you pose a scriptural reference to bludgeon pro-lifers, you will have to deal with those adept at scriptural interpretation, and I don't lay claim to such as you have. Ask me a question regarding my own scriptural beliefs and I'll be more than happy to respond via freepmail. This thread was begun in discussion of Terri's autopsy and abilities achieved and lost due to forced neglect speak to the need for a thorough autopsy. Berating the People who stood vigil at Pinellas Park does not.
I know I am a "newbie" and all... but from your ranting I think youre the one who needs therapy... I am done with you, two words... anger management. Scott Peterson? LMAO gimme a break.. leave it to you to cross over yet again.
Kindly cite whatever evidence you have that (1) she actually had an eating disorder; (2) said eating order was the cause of her collapse. The allegation that her collapse was a result of hypokatemia which was in turn caused by the eating disorder was, from what I understand, a conjecture based upon the fact that no other cause of the collapse was immediately apparent. I know of no blood work or other evidence that affirmatively shows the causality there. Perhaps you can enlighten me.
If Terri had an honest guardian, that person would have petitioned for and received a divorce on Terri's behalf (Florida law allows for such things, and abandonment would clearly constitute grounds).
From where does King George get the statutory authority to refuse someone oral food and hydration for the purpose of causing death?
A judicial order without statutory basis is void.
Although I doubt that the factual record of the cases would tend to justify such rulings, it would be possible for the facts of the case to be such that Mr. Simpson should have been acquitted of murder and yet found liable for wrongful death.
As a hypothetical example, suppose Mr. Simpson had just visited Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown and had accidentally failed to lock a gate behind him as he left; someone else entered via the locked gate and committed the murders. In such case, one could argue that Mr. Simpson had acted negligently in failing to secure the gate, and that it was foreseeable that such negligence would allow a criminal to enter and commit a crime. The accidental failure to lock the gate would not constitute murder (or any other criminal offense for that matter) but would nonetheless be a sound basis for a wrongful death award.
I don't think anyone has alleged a factual record that would support a split finding as would the above hypothetical, but since I haven't reviewed the trial records I can't say for sure.
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