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To: metalmanx2j

This posting is a bit more complex than it first appears.

- The Apostle Paul condemned the sin of homosexuality.
- Paul (and Jesus also) admonished Christians to submit to civil authority.

Thus, condemnation of the Spanish legislation as “iniquitous” by the Roman Catholic Church is totally understandable; encouraging officials and employees not to obey the law is more problematic. While it can be argued that just because something is made law does not make it right, the fact remains that it is still the law.

Perhaps, as Paul writes in the book of Romans, this truly is a matter of conscience, and is best left at that.

It is fit and proper for religious authorities to speak out on sin; however, religious advocacy of civil disobedience is not Biblical.


15 posted on 04/22/2005 10:01:59 AM PDT by X. OTerica
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To: X. OTerica
- Paul (and Jesus also) admonished Christians to submit to civil authority. Thus, condemnation of the Spanish legislation as “iniquitous” by the Roman Catholic Church is totally understandable; encouraging officials and employees not to obey the law is more problematic. While it can be argued that just because something is made law does not make it right, the fact remains that it is still the law.

Uh, you need to do a little more study on Christian teaching and civil law. It was civil law during the Roman Empire to sacrifice to the Cult of the Emperor. You could be forced to do it. Christians resisted and were executed for not adhering to this "law." No one would argue that these martyrs were disobeying the teachings of Christ or St. Paul. Many of them are saints.

The Church has always taught that when civil law and Divine Law are at odds, civil law may not only be set aside, but it must be vigorously resisted. This case in Spain is a perfect example.
19 posted on 04/22/2005 10:12:19 AM PDT by Antoninus (Benedictus qui venit in nomine Domini, Hosanna in excelsis!)
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To: X. OTerica

It is NEVER okay to facilitate or submit to immoral laws. Period.

If the law says "kill your neighbor's firstborn son", you are REQUIRED to disobey that law.



20 posted on 04/22/2005 10:21:50 AM PDT by Rutles4Ever
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To: X. OTerica
encouraging officials and employees not to obey the law is more problematic.

An intrinsically evil law is no law. Authorities attempting to implement intrinsically evil laws have no authority to do so. It's as simple as that.

29 posted on 04/22/2005 11:17:51 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: X. OTerica

"Perhaps, as Paul writes in the book of Romans, this truly is a matter of conscience, and is best left at that.

It is fit and proper for religious authorities to speak out on sin; however, religious advocacy of civil disobedience is not Biblical."

-You bring up some good points. Your conclusions are worth exploring further. Paul tells us that as Christians we are 'in the world but not of the world'. In tandem is Jesus' admonition to 'render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's'. How are we to interpret the Pope's view of the new, Spanish legislation through the context of our Christian lives?

It seems to me that Matthew, the tax collector gives us the living example. As an administrator, his job was in conflict with his heart, after he met Jesus. As a result, Matthew was no longer a tax collector. He chose to give up his secular authority for his faith in Jesus. Christ knew this would not be easy. He tells us to sell our worldly possessions and follow Him. He makes it clear that to amass secular power and worldly wealth is at odds with the kingdom of heaven. He councils us to be not afraid and that there are many mansions in His Father's house. Christ pushes us to make the moral choice. This Pope is asking us to do the same.

The Pope calls on us not to obstruct the government. Jesus tells us the same thing. What the Pope is asking Catholics in Spain to do is to keep their hearts pure. He is throwing down the moral challenge to them. If they are true Catholics, then they cannot administer a policy which is contradiction with their faith. Their moral obligation is to resign their secular position if it is at odds with their faith.

Catholics who will have the hardest time with the Pope's admonitions will be those who want to be both Catholic and amass secular power or position, as well. This Pope, in a few days has already told us in so many words that if you are a true Catholic, there are certain jobs you cannot or will not do. Abortionist, Spanish Marriage License Clerk, Governor of a Capital Punishment State, President of the United States (as long as abortion and capital punishment are the law),etc.

This will be tough medicine for the Cafeteria Catholic crowd. Being a Catholic is a lot more than just vestments and monstrance. This Pope expects Catholics to live up to their faith. It will be interesting...


43 posted on 04/22/2005 11:36:48 AM PDT by johnnycap
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To: X. OTerica
While it can be argued that just because something is made law does not make it right,

Sucessfully.

the fact remains that it is still the law.

Kinda like slavery was. And abortion is.

53 posted on 04/22/2005 12:34:10 PM PDT by Protagoras (Christ is risen.)
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To: X. OTerica
But sinful? Truly, I have to depend on the Bible to define what is sinful. Some research might shed light, but I cannot offer anything off hand.

Assuming you to be Catholic -post # 72 presents some authoritative and authentic Catholic teaching -definitive developments beyond the Sola Scriptura.

73 posted on 04/22/2005 2:54:59 PM PDT by DBeers (†)
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To: X. OTerica

So when it was illegal in the Roman Empire to be Christian, it was the duty of all Christians to become pagans? All of those people practicing Christianity in the catacombs were practicing civil disobedience, were those martyrs wrong? Saint Peter and Saint Paul were excuted for violating the law of the Roman Empire, are you telling me they apostasized?


79 posted on 04/22/2005 3:17:55 PM PDT by nickcarraway (I'm Only Alive, Because a Judge Hasn't Ruled I Should Die...)
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To: X. OTerica

Quitting your job isn't civil disobedience, its your right. That's what they suggested; to quit rather than submit.


83 posted on 04/22/2005 4:03:01 PM PDT by Integrityrocks
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To: X. OTerica
It is fit and proper for religious authorities to speak out on sin; however, religious advocacy of civil disobedience is not Biblical.

The Roman Empire under Trajan and Hadrian said that all citizens should worship the Emperor. The Christians didn't. I guess that form of 'religious advocacy of civil disobedience' was also not Biblical....
89 posted on 04/22/2005 8:45:50 PM PDT by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: X. OTerica

I disagree. Sometimes the civil authority is so egregiously evil or sinful that it by co-operating with the sin/evil one joins in their wickedness.

BTW, it was perfectly lawful and legal to discriminate against and then exterminate Jews and other "undesirables" in Germany during the Third Reich. Do you think Jesus or his disciples would have said that people should go along with those crimes?

Of course you don't.


92 posted on 04/22/2005 11:56:18 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Resisting evil is our duty or we are as responsible as those promoting it.)
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