VANITY NOTICE: I've just learned that I am an "EXTREMIST!" WOO HOO!! [This is NOT an OPUS]

FreeRepublic.com | April 5th, 2005 | Jim Robinson

[PaRebel]

Thanks for the response and the links. In time, more facts will come to light, thoough too late for Terri.

[lugsoul]

You are correct that the order appointing Wolfson came from Demers - it was pursuant to the directive from Jeb that was authorized by "Terri's Law." So, yes, Demers entered an order effecting what the Governor requested pursuant to that law.

My only motivation is challenging the truckload of misinformation that is currency here regarding this case. If one believes the crap that gets spread around here as generally accepted fact, it is easy to say "Jim is right." But large portions of that "generally accepted fact" are simply untrue - and demonstrably so.

With regard to your comments on my statements on Constitutional law, anyone who thinks that one can read "Congress" in the 1st Amendment and conclude that the amendment applies only to Congress, without considering either the 14th Amendment or the massive body of case law on state action needs a remedial education. That is pretty basic high school civics stuff - one doesn't need a law degree to know how off the mark that position is - nevertheless, it gets thrown around in these discussions every time they are had.

Insider info? No. Just a lack of preconceptions that are spread here like an std.

[Cboldt]

You may want to read the Florida Supreme Court's review of the In re Browning case.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/browning.txt

We [SCOFLA] have for review In re Guardianship of Browning, 543 So.2d 258 (Fla. 2d DCA 1989), in which the district court certified the following question as one of great public importance:

Whether the guardian of a patient who is incompetent but not in a permanent vegetative state and who suffers from an incurable, but not terminal condition, may exercise the patient's right of self-determination to forego sustenance provided artificially by a nasogastric tube?

Id. at 274. [FN1] We answer the question in the affirmative as qualified in this opinion.

FN1. We have jurisdiction. Art. V, 3(b)(4), Fla. Const. Estelle Browning died on July 16, 1989, at the age of 89. Although the claim is moot, we accept jurisdiction because the issue raised is of great public importance and likely to recur. In re T.W., 551 So.2d 1186, 1189 (Fla.1989); Holly v. Auld, 450 So.2d 217, 218 n. 1 (Fla.1984).

So, Mrs. Browning was dead by the time the Florida Supreme Court got the case, and SCOFLA chose to add their imprimatur to the practice of starvation as the agent of death. Now it is clear what is being protected, the sense of the court that hastening death by starvation is a-okay. The courts have been sanctioning this for years.

The below paragraph comes from the dissenting opinion by OVERTON. What struck me was what may be an express admission that starvation death is "early termination of life."

I am concerned that, if there is no judicial involvement, these decisions could be made by surrogates who would benefit financially from an early termination of the ward's life. Given the factors involved, I find a substantial state interest in the protection of the ward and also a need to assure the public that a proper decision is being made where the intent of the ward is unknown or is based only on the ward's prior oral statement. In this type of situation, I would be much more comfortable with an impartial judge having the opportunity to determine the validity of the oral statement and the medical certificates, particularly where those making the decision have a financial interest.

The majority opinion nonetheless asserts that the death is by natural causes. Note too, that the dissent is okay with starvation death, as long as the facts are reviewed first, by a judge. So, it's possible that the dissent's use of "early death" refers merely to the difference between a surragate making the decision with, vs. without judicial approval.

Two other asserted state interests do not merit much discussion. First, there is no issue in this case pertaining to third parties. Second, suicide is not an issue when, as here, the discontinuation of life support "in fact will merely result in [her] death, if at all, from natural causes." Satz, 362 So.2d at 162.

I haven't found the decision of the Florida appellate court, 543 So.2d 258, but bet it's a piece of work too.

[FBD]

RE:>"A stained glass window of George Washington praying, in the chapel in the U.S. Capitol"<

?
FRiend... you'll get no arguments from me; that most of our founders (including Madison) were religious, God fearing men.
I had believed that the Madison quote Jim referenced was real as well, but it appears that it isn't.
Madison once said (it's documented):
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary." ~ James Madison

Now...both atheists and evangelicals, liberals and conservatives have misquoted and mis-attributed quotes and downright false quotes to the founding fathers, in order to support their own cherished point of view. That is both dishonest and disrespectful to our founders.

If we quote someone, we should be careful to quote accurately...especially if using that person to buttress our own viewpoint.
..and the Madison quote in question, appears to be unverifiable.
Regards

[Cboldt]

Just another thought about Browning. The ramifications of that case are simple. Even if Terri is NOT in a PVS, even if she fits the pattern outlined in the question posed to SCOFLA ("a patient who is incompetent but not in a permanent vegetative state and who suffers from an incurable, but not terminal condition"), the courts will sanction a starvation death.

I am pretty sure the death advocates know about this, so that even if Terri was found not PVS, her starvation would be legally justified.

[LS]

Yes. Actually, these things can make our case stronger. It's like the famous urban myth that the Nazis banned guns. THEY DIDN'T. They didn't have to! The Weimar Republic (that would be, the Democracy for those of you in Rio Linda) banned guns in 1926 as a means to control the "mob violence." Guess the Nazis didn't qualify as a "mob."

There is no question that the Founders, almost to a man, thought that the support of God was critical to the Republic.

[FBD]

I did not know that guns were banned in 1926 by the Weimar Republic, thanks. I'll be checking out your book. It's off topic for this thread, but here is an accurate quote,(as opposed to the one attributed to Hitler) by Himmler:

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." -–Heinrich Himmler

[LS]

I don't know about that, but I do know that one of the supposed "laws" passed by the Germans against Jewish firearms ownership that goes around the web is bogus. We have a specialist in German history on our staff---no friend of the Nazis---and he always laughs at these claims because the Weimar Republic was trying to control the rival parties who were literally battling it out in the streets. I have seen the actual 1926 legislation, but can't remember where I saw it.

[nosofar]

Why is it that all the folks in support of taking away Terri's water and food are so incredibly ignorant (to put it mildly)?

Some are ignorant. Some are just overly legalistic.

[nosofar]

Don't forget: 'It must be a moral law.'

I think that's where the terms 'fair' and 'just' come in. Both are moral determinations.

[falpro]

Thanks for your reasoned response.

Question for you:
Do you personally know any of the parties involved in this case? Obviously, I wouldn't be surprised if you refuse to answer.

Reason I ask is because you've indicated that you're a lawyer....
"I've taken an interest in Moore's antics since he was on the bench in Etowah County - I am from Alabama, and I am an attorney, so stuff like that is of interest to me."...lugsoul

Do YOU have a connection with this case?
"My hang up is people who have no more connection to this case than reading media reports claiming the right to decide what did and did not happen."....lugsoul

You obviously know other movers & shakers in FL...Orlando FL (Democratic)
Mayor surrenders to fraud probe"
"If you judge him solely on that basis, that speaks more about you than about him. I know Buddy Dyer. I know his wife and children. He is a good man"...lugsoul

So I would submit to you lugsoul, that you MAY have a vested interest in defending the legal players in this case. And if so, why not present your bias and we'll go from there.

I wouldn't blame you for defending your friends and colleagues. I would still disagree with you, but would have a better understanding of your displaced Never Give Up Attitude.

[Recovering_Democrat]

JR, you rock!
Respectfully,
Recovering_Democrat

[lugsoul]

Wow - spent some time picking through my posts, did ya?

My 'vested' interest, to use your phrase, is the defense of the legal system [which, though far from perfect, is the best in existence] against those who are more than willing to throw completely unreasonable criticisms at the process whenever they disagree with the result.

An example: When the case was filed with Whittemore, there were lots of folks here posting crap to the effect of "what is he waiting for?" and "what is taking so long? why is he sitting on this?" - which is ridiculous if one has even the slightest inkling of the Herculean effort required to turn around a ruling on a TRO in about 24 hours. Of course, after he did that, the same people were accusing him of giving the motion short shrift. If you don't believe me, go look at the posts on those threads.

If you read what the 2nd DCA did, they went above and beyond what was required. It can not be reasonably disputed that this case got more "due process" than any guardianship matter in recent memory. Yet people are willing to say almost anything to demonize the judges involved, because they don't like the result.

I know it is simplistic, but every decision by a judge leaves someone feeling like they got shafted. That doesn't mean the judge did anything wrong.

Yes, I know some folks in Florida, but do not personally know the players. I've appeared before some of the judges involved, down there and in Atlanta, and I have my own opinions of them - but the "consensus" here about some of them - for example, that Ed Carnes is a "liberal judicial activist" - is so absurd that someone needs to respond.

Greer's performance may not have been perfect, but I do believe the 2nd DCA did a very thorough review on more than one occasion, as evidenced by the matters noted in their opinions. I would've never imagined that appellate judges would actually watch hours of video - but these did. They obviously reviewed the testimony and the reports thoroughly. To attack them as a "rubberstamp" for Greer is profoundly unfair to them.

As far as my Never Give Up attitude, my guess is that you only note it because of where I come down on these issues - there are hundreds of people with a similarly stubborn approach on the other side of the issues, and their approach doesn't often get characterized in the same way. Nevertheless, what would you expect on Free Republic? You think I'd just roll over? ;-)

[DaveTesla]

That quote is also listed on 3 other major law library indexes. (Cornell law for instance).
I believe the quote was not made out of carelessness
as you seem to imply.
I believe the veracity of the inquisition on Mr Robinson's
post clearly shows the disrespect and annoyance toward
the Christan principals that are not understood by the
atheistic individuals here at Free Republic.

Entered into the records of the U.S. Congress:
IN RECOGNITION OF NATIONAL BIBLE WEEK -- HON. STEVE LARGENT (Extension of Remarks - November 13, 1997)


[Page: E2386] GPO's PDF

---

HON. STEVE LARGENT

in the House of Representatives

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 13, 1997


Mr. LARGENT. Mr. Speaker, the Laymen's National Bible
Association has bestowed upon me the honor of
congressional cochair for National Bible Week. It is,
therefore, with respect and pleasure that I announce
November 23-30 as National Bible Week. I encourage my
colleagues in the House and the Senate, as well as the
American people to observe National Bible Week through the
study of God's word.

The Bible has been a source of moral guidance throughout
world history, but America's reliance upon the Bible has
been particularly profound. The American public and the
U.S. Government have long used Biblical principles to
shepherd progress. For that reason, National Bible Week
has several goals. It is an opportunity for individuals to
expand their knowledge of the Bible, reaffirm commitment
to its principles, and introduce its values into the lives
of others. I also encourage my colleagues in Congress to
recognize and explore Scripture's treasures upon which our
great Nation depends. I urge everyone to use National
Bible Week to understand God's message in Psalm 119:105.
It says, `Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for
my path.' National Bible Week enables us the occasion to
commit ourselves to Biblical guidance.

Americans have long had a commitment to the Bible. Indeed,
the greatest success of many new world colonists was to
break free of religious intolerance in England and create
a community firmly established on an observance of
Biblical principles. Perhaps no group better exemplified
the Reformation in early America than the Puritans of the
Massachusetts Bay Colony. Their hope of religious freedom
led them to leave the hypocrisy of England in search of a
closer connection to God's word. It was aboard the
flagship Arbella, just before landing in Massachusetts
Bay, that John Winthrop issued his sermon, `A Model of
Chritian Charity.' In his sermon he said, `We must
consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill; the eyes
of all people are upon us.' His words explained the
purpose of the Puritans, a people who would develop a
close relationship with God's Word and lead by example.

Years later, the 13 colonies waged the Revolutionary War
against the English to secure their religious freedoms.
Their triumph was a cleansing of intolerance in the new
frontier. After the war, revolutionary America set out< to
champion the values for which they fought into a national
law. This challenge was met with the Constitution, a
unique document heavily influenced by the laws of God in
the Bible. James Madison spoke of the Bible's influence on
the Constitution. He said, `the future and success of
America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of
God upon which this Constitution is founded.'

Psalm 119:2 says, `Blessed are they who keep to His
statutes and seek Him with all their heart.' This verse is
especially relevant for today's national leaders. My
colleagues and I need to seek personal guidance from the
Bible. As Noah Webster said, `The Bible must be considered
as the great source of all truth by which men are to be
guided in government. * * *' My hope for National Bible
Week is that it will serve notice to our U.S. Congress,
that we may begin to reacquaint our actions, words, and
politics with Biblical example to serve our citizens
better.

All Americans should take notice that `All Scripture is
God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness. (II Timothy
3:16)' Society puts many burdens on family values.
National Bible Week is an opportunity for families to
reaffirm their unity through study of the Bible, or to
acquaint children to the Bible for the first time.
Remember the example of John Quincy Adams who said, `So
great is my veneration for the Bible, and so strong my
belief, that when duly read and meditated on, it is of all
good books in the world, that which contributes most to
make men good, wise, and happy--that the earlier my
children begin to read it, the more steadily they pursue
the practice of reading it throughout their lives, the
more lively and confident will be my hopes that they will
prove useful citizens to their country, respectable
members of society, and a real blessing to their parents.'
Utilize National Bible Week to introduce its stories and
parables to your children so that they may later in life
rely upon the Bible.

Finally, how appropriate that National Bible Week falls in
the same week as Thanksgiving, a holiday that celebrates
the Founders of our Nation, founding principles, and all
of our blessings. On Thanksgiving we can all thank our
Nation's Founders for remaining true to Biblical
principles and incorporating them into law. More
importantly, National Bible Week enables all Americans to
enhance the celebrations of Thanksgiving through a renewed
and heighted focus on the study and mediation of the
Bible.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r105:E13NO7-894:


===========================================================

Other than RAINING on the owner of this website by Nit-
picking would any one care to DISPROVE the rest of these quotes:

1.From the Father of our Country:


"Such being the impressions under which I have, in
obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present
station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this
first official act, my fervent supplications to that
Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides
in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can
supply every human defect, that His benediction may
consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of
the United States.." "...Every step by which
they have advanced to the character of an independent
nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of
providential agency" From President George
Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789,
addressed to both Houses of Congress.

President Washingtons Thanksgiving Day Proclamation, 1789

2. "It is impossible to rightly govern the world
without God and the Bible"President George
Washington, September 17th, 1796

3. "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to
political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." President George Washington

4. "...The Smiles of Heaven can never be expected On a Nation that disregards the eternal rules of Order and Right, which Heaven Itself Ordained."President George Washington


5. "I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth -- God Governs in the Affairs of Men, And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, Is it possible that an empire can rise without His aid?"Benjamin Franklin

6. "Except the Lord build the house, They labor in vain who build it." "I firmly believe this."Benjamin Franklin, 1787, Constitutional Convention

7. "We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." President James Madison


8. "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government."Noah Webster

9. "Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others."Patrick Henry

10. "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed."Patrick Henry

11. "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."President Thomas Jefferson

12. "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."President Thomas Jefferson

13. "Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson, To William Canby, 1813


14. "We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions ubridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."John Adams, address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798.

15. "I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..."President Thomas Jefferson

16. "The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."President John Adams

17. "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land."James Madison

18. "We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us . . . to Govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." President James Madison

19. "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay

20. "Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine....Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other."James Wilson, a signer of the Constitution and an original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court

21. "Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools."Benjamin Rush

22. "It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God."President John Quincy Adams

23. "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity."President John Quincy Adams

24. "a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public" First Lady Abigail Adams

25. "The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests."President Andrew Jackson

26. "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book.Abraham Lincoln

27. Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address

"Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured...
"Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him?

Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.'

"With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address, March 4th, 1865.

28. "Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty" Abraham Lincoln.

29. "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." Abraham Lincoln.

30. "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion."Abraham Lincoln.

31. "The New Testament is the very best that ever was or ever will be known in the world." Charles Dickens

32. "Our laws and institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teaching of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that is should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian . . . this is a Christian nation."US Supreme Court, 1892

33. "If the Moral character of a people degenerate, their political character must follow. These considerations should lead to an attentive solicitude to be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers...and judge of the tree by its fruits." Elias Boudinot

35. Beginnings.......

It is hoped that by God's assistance, some of the continents in the Ocean will be discovered....for the Glory of God. Christopher Columbus

The Mayflower Compact, November 11th, 1620


36. "All persons living in this province, who confess and acknowledge the One Almighty and Eternal God to be the Creator, Upholder, and Ruler of the world, and that hold themselves obliged in conscience to live peaceably and justly in civil society, shall in no wise be molested or prejudiced for their religious persuasion or practice, in matters of faith and worship; nor shall they be compelled at any time to frequent or maintain any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever." April 25, 1662- William Penn signed this to establish religious liberty in the new provence of (Pennsylvania).


Excerpts from the Declaration to take up arms, July 6th, 1775
Declaration of Independence, July 4th, 1776

37. "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.","Give me liberty or give me death."Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention

38. "A general dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader . . . If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security."Samuel Adams, 1779

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as Terry Shiavo is concerned I guess It takes a
Christian to see that the law is corrupt and self serving
at times. Any one would agree to lying to a jury and
receiving 1.2 million dollars in the pretense of using it
for rehalibation of his disabled wife and then putting her
in a hospice at the taxpayers expense and spending more
than half of the settlement ($700,000)on a lawyer to have
her life terminated against her family's wishes is
just plain EVIL. Not allowing any rehabilitation or just a
wheelchair ride out into the sunlight or one thin dime to
pay for any kind of therapy is truly sad.

And we are to justify these things by the LAW?

We did not become the greatest nation on earth by the law but by faith.

We do not persevere by the law but by faith.


He who lives by the law alone and not by faith hangs hims self with his own laws.

Regards; DaveTesla

[FBD]

Thanks for the quotes Friend, and I will save some of them as I know they are true quotes, with the exception of that one by Madison, which can’t be verified.

>“I believe the quote was not made out of carelessness
as you seem to imply.”<

Believe it all you want, but it doesn’t appear that it can be verified.
But you don’t seem to be understanding what I am trying to convey to you, Friend.
Granted there are people with an anti-Christian agenda here, who try to discredit quotes on that basis. Anti-gun people try to do the same thing…
But citing a bogus quote only serves to discredit the rest of a message, even if a person is unintentionally repeating a made-up quote.

The people who research the founders speeches, and writings for a living, aren’t trying to discredit quotes out of bias.

Take for example this quote (below); attributed to George Washington:

“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master.”
Is it verifiable? No…. and I have it on my FR home page
Here’s what the experts say about that quote:

"Attributed to George Washington.—Frank J. Wilstach, A Dictionary of Similes, 2d ed., p. 526 (1924).
This can be found with minor variations in wording and in punctuation, and with ‘fearful’ for ‘troublesome,’ in George Seldes, The Great Quotations, p. 727 (1966). Unverified. In his most recent book of quotations, The Great Thoughts (1985), Seldes Says, p. 441, col. 2, footnote, this paragraph ‘although credited to the 'Farewell' [address] cannot be found in it. …“Lawson Hamblin, who owns a facsimile, and Horace Peck, America's foremost authority on quotations, informed me this paragraph is apocryphal [fake].’"

Now, FRiend; those people have researched that quote… and concluded from their research that it is bogus.
Does my believing it make it real? NO!
Is it an excellent quote? YES! It’s EXCELLENT! And as for James Madison‘s “quote” it’s a great “quote“, but out of HONESTY, it needs to be acknowledged that it can’t be verified.

Regards

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

LOL! You guys rock...

[DaveTesla]

“I believe the quote was not made out of carelessness."

"as you seem to imply".

I am stating that the quote can be found on the law web of
Cornell Law school, was on the Harvard Law site and in the
Library of Congress's publications. If that isn't
reasonable due diligence what is?

Believe it all you want, but it doesn't’t appear
that it can be verified.

Where did I state that I believed the quote was TRUE?
As for the verification I never argued one way or another.

There is plenty of other documented sources of evidence to
support the same opinion of the founding forefathers.

If one leaf of a tree appears to be dying should we cut
down the whole tree?

That's what I saw when the Harvard site was pulled.

Score another point for the suppression of history by the
secular atheist.

[exDemMom]

But she was executed by the state in one of the most horrific ways imaginable anyway, in direct violation of the clear principles of the Fifth Amendment and Article One, Section Two of the Florida constitution.

I believe there were 14th Amendment violations in there, also, as well as blatant disregard of the federal Citizens with Disabilities act.

[EternalVigilance]

You are correct.

[trisham]

That puts you in the company of extremist folks like George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Ben Franklin, & Co.

**************

An honor indeed.