Posted on 03/27/2005 11:39:47 AM PST by El_Doctor
Rick Barnard of Morris, Illinois, wass arrested Sunday after trying to bring Terri Schiavo Easter communion. per cnn... ALLAHASSEE, Florida (CNN) -- Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said on Sunday there is nothing else he can do to save Terri Schiavo's life. "I cannot violate a court order," Bush said after returning to the Governor's Mansion from Easter Sunday church services. "I don't have powers from the United States Constitution or -- for that matter from the Florida Constitution -- that would allow me to intervene after a decision has been made." To Terri Schiavo's parents -- who have said Bush should do more to help their daughter -- the governor said: "I can't. I'd love to, but I can't." The governor has been under public pressure from Bob and Mary Schindler, parents of the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman, and many religious groups to intervene further in the case. On Thursday, a Florida state judge denied a petition by Gov. Bush and the state Department of Children and Families to take Schiavo into state custody. (Full story) The Florida Supreme Court dismissed on Saturday -- for the second time in a week -- an emergency petition by the Schindlers to have their daughter's feeding tube reconnected. "I'm sad that she's in the situation that she's in," Bush said, commenting publicly on the case for the first time since Thursday. "I feel bad for her family. My heart goes out to the Schindlers and, for that matter, to [her husband] Michael [Schiavo]," Bush said. "This has not been an easy thing for any, any member of the family. But most particularly for Terri Schiavo."
(Excerpt) Read more at CNN.com ...
First off, I asked you a series of questions which you did not answer. Why? Because you don't have answers to those questions. Or at least, you are unwilling to recognize answers that contradict your fanciful distorted view of reality.
You are willing to assert that Florida laws are on your side, and suggest that I (LOL!) need to take a law class. Of course, you have never read Florida law. You are simply willing to presume in your ignorance that it would agree with your own misconceptions about the matter.
"Article II SECTION 3 SECTION 3. Branches of government.--The powers of the state government shall be divided into legislative, executive and judicial branches. No person belonging to one branch shall exercise any powers appertaining to either of the other branches unless expressly provided herein." (And you can read Article V to see there are no special provisions that give the judiciary jurisdiction over the governor)
"Article IV SECTION 1 (a) The supreme executive power shall be vested in a governor, who shall be commander-in-chief of all military forces of the state not in active service of the United States. The governor shall take care that the laws be faithfully executed, commission all officers of the state and counties, and transact all necessary business with the officers of government. The governor may require information in writing from all executive or administrative state, county or municipal officers upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices. The governor shall be the chief administrative officer of the state responsible for the planning and budgeting for the state."
"Article IV SECTION 6. Executive departments.--All functions of the executive branch of state government shall be allotted among not more than twenty-five departments, exclusive of those specifically provided for or authorized in this constitution. The administration of each department, unless otherwise provided in this constitution, shall be placed by law under the direct supervision of the governor, the lieutenant governor, the governor and cabinet, a cabinet member, or an officer or board appointed by and serving at the pleasure of the governor"
"Article IV SECTION 7 (a) By executive order stating the grounds and filed with the custodian of state records, the governor may suspend from office any state officer not subject to impeachment, any officer of the militia not in the active service of the United States, or any county officer, for malfeasance, misfeasance, neglect of duty, drunkenness, incompetence, permanent inability to perform official duties, or commission of a felony, and may fill the office by appointment for the period of suspension. The suspended officer may at any time before removal be reinstated by the governor."
I also suggest reading Article VIII if you aren't convinced that there isn't some special stipulation that turns around and grants independent, incontrovertible executive powers to the local governments.
So, let's see, according to the Florida constitution your assertion that "the laws of the state of Florida do not put the local law enforcement in control of the Governor. Only state law enforcement is." is crap and "Jeb also has NO ABILITY AS GOVERNOR TO DECOMMISSION them" is crap, as well as your suggestion that local courts have some sort of exectutive power over local officers.
As a former AP U.S. History student, I can tell you that if you just *knew your history* you would understand the executive's ability to ignore court decisions.
"John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!"--Andrew Jackson
Honestly, I should not have had to go and cite the relevant portions of the state consitution. This is just how separation of powers works, my friend. I guarantee you it's the same in every other state consitution in the United States.
And if there were a shootout over this, like you keep insisting, it would entirely because of blokes like yourself who don't understand the laws they think they're carrying out.
My father probably starved or died of dehydration. He was an innocent person. I guess that makes my whole family morally reprehensible. Probably millions of other families too.
Absolutely not. But yes, I can see how easily that can happen.
It is very difficult. If one is so totally worked up on adrenaline for several years and suddenly the bottom drops out because everything goes back to a normal boring day, this is very difficult. Substance abuse did not inter into the picture since I never had and do not have interest in it (in other words, I have never tried and have no interest in drugs). I can’t explain it other than one learns to live with a very dull life compared to the previous. One just occupies ones’ mind with other things. It sounds corny, but that is all the personal advice I can share. I kept asking myself, “how was it before all this stared?” My comment was always, “In acomparison, kind of dull compared to those years leading up to 1899.” Does that help? Probably not because it is a personal healing.
Based on your prompt, I did review some of your posting history. I think you have a good sentiment about reigning in the judiciary, and I think your outrage at the Schiavo incident is tempered.
I've given the matter some serious deliberation, and my outrage is not tempered. This is a miscarriage of justice. This is state sponsored taking of life against the patient's wishes. (No, I can't prove it, but the evidence is not clear and convincing that Terri would choose death - and in my dreamworld, suicide is illegal on moral grounds). Applleate courts did not review the contentious fact evidence, Greer blew off a motion based on Terri's utterances because the motion was not timely. This is not justice. And the statutory framework is irrelevant when the jusde and appeal system avert from honest finding of fact.
My point about the Schindler's attorneys is that they prepared sloppy briefs. No excuse for that.
I haven't read the briefs, but I have read the Fed District and Fed Circuit opinions. Life in the balance, and the system justoifies taking an innocent life because some lawyer didn't find the exact right argument. That is not justice, I don't care how it is spun. I know, in my heart, that what is being done is a travesty of monumental proportions. If you have a law degree, and are honest, you know it too.
It is incumbent upon a nation and its people to honor life. "Laws" that seek life's end are laws that need to be broken in favor of the higher principle of life itself. It is not an easy path to take, but it is the right one. We can cry "Law! Law!" all damned day, but when the law is inherently wrong and life is at stake, break it and endure the consequences.
Bush has been given authority by the people first and foremost to act in favor of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. An excercise of power in favor of life is proper. Let the death ghouls squeal like stuck pigs over the matter. They don't know moral goodness from a hole in the ground.
OH barf!
The man has jumped through fiery hoops for her. Unfortuanately, he's been hemmed in by the "legal" process. He or President Bush can't do anything else, however, without establishing an ugly precedent. Do you really want future Presidents to be able to send in the troops whenever it is "really important" or "the right thing to do", regardless of what the laws and Constitution say he can do? Can't you see a Clinton-a-like twenty years from now using this as a precenent for sending in the ATF against some poor sod because, he'll say with a quivering lip, "it will save lives"?
God Almighty will judge Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer, and everyone else involved, but Jeb and W have done all that can be done without moving into dangerous territory.
*throws rotten tomatoes* O_o
I agree it's not justice. It's one of those terribly disturbing times when the law itself is the obstacle to justice.
I am not one who advocates civil disobedience, or dissolving a system of government, or trashing political leaders who stepped up to a scorching hot plate.
I am someone who believes that, with all it's glaring flaws, this remains the best form of government on this Earth. ----If only because we, the people, have the power to change these laws and return justice to the "right to live" issue.
Fighting for these changes is how I choose to honor the life and struggle of Terri and the Schindler family.
And, there's nothing "tempered" about it.
Personally, I think Rosa Parks was right, so I am in favor of civil disobedience. I think you do too. A leap to "dissove a system of government" is hyperbole. Advocating against "trashing political leaders" is advocating against criticism. Free speech and all that. Some folks speak their minds in technically incorrect terms and in ethically charged discussion are apt to be hyperbolic. But their sentiment comes through, even if the expression lacks polish. THose of us who are more polished have a duty to temper the discussion, but not to temper the sentiment.
I am someone who believes that, with all it's glaring flaws, this remains the best form of government on this Earth. ----If only because we, the people, have the power to change these laws and return justice to the "right to live" issue.
I am not as optimistic as you are. The people's connection to power is weak. But I do agree that, in principle, our system is the best yet devised by man. But it isn't working according to its design, and as the founders noted, the system depends on maintenance. Franklin - "A Republic, if you can keep it" and Adams, "a system fit only for a moral people" come to mind.
Glad to have you working for "power to the people." I'd like to hear what changes you believe will be effective.
I was very proud about my new country (USA) until this killing of Terri began. American congress can order a war to free the people of another country even when it is against the law of THTA country to do so. THe leader of that country is removed and freedom is arriving there. Can this congress do nothing to free this woman from her murderers? Despite the "legal order" laid down by this insane judge? I am now embarressed to speak to my German friends. Condoleeza Rice and George Bush in Germany promised to bring life liberty and pursuit of happiness to the world. And what is now regarding this one simple life?
Judges now make almost all the decisions in our lives now.
Part of the problem though is that the only remedy available to citizens is to have judges impeached however this action cannot be initiated by citizens Im afraid.
I imagine this has played into the decision not to intervene and allow this state sanctioned, cruel execution to take place. They don't want a shoot out at a Hospice , risking more people getting hurt. The pinellas park ,SS police have said they will not let the Marshall's take Terri.
It is wrong not to save her. It is wrong to let a helpless woman be starved/dehydrated to death because a euthanasia lawyer , corrupt judge, abusive HINO, have schemed (by denying tests, MRI, Pet Scan, swallow test, therapy,-inspite of settlement money for that purpose-that the judge allowed to go to euthanasia lawyers- and not allowing her to be filmed or photographed) to make it further their euthanasia agenda.
This is a stain on our nation.
I hope that some good will come out of it, that these laws will be changed regarding families rights, in a situation like this. I hope that the US congress will enforce the new law that allows judicial review at the federal level for these disputes. Since removal of a feeding tube will result in death, the person should at least have the same rights as someone on death row. A judge should NEVER be allowed to block evidence, by tests, or witnesses, when trying to determine a persons wishes. Or, perhaps a jury trial can be used to determine weather the person should have a feeding tube removed. Both sides can present evidence, let a jury decide, not a single judge.
There are so many laws that need to be reviewed. I find it outrageous, that this has been allowed to happen.
Terri's family (especially her mom, but all of them) are being forced to watch their daughter be slowly murdered by starvation/dehydration, right in front of them. They can't even put ice chips on her mouth. She looked so bad, with her skin drying out and bleeding from her eyes and mouth that her mother vomited and had to leave the room. There is nothing wrong with Terri, other than brain damage. She has been refused , by her adulterous conflicted interest husband, and one judge the ,right to live.
(I'm still waiting for someone to explain why Terri's money is all gone and she's on Medicaid, while her husband has a job, bought a house, cars, pays for his girlfriend and her kids, and while $300,000 plus dollars went to Felos to have her killed, and why Felos was on the board of directors of the hospice she is in, or why MS and Felos contributed to Greers reelection campaign, while he was hearing her case?
Last week Terri probably did not so much as have a common cold.She has no terminal illness, is not on any machines. Now, she is laying in a hospice bed, her body crying out for water, and her mother can't give her any. A police officer stands in the room to make sure that her mother can't give her any relief from her burning thirst and hunger.
(this is why it's murder- no one is allowed to feed her or give her water by mouth supposedly because she'll choke, but they are trying to kill her anyway. I wonder if the the doctor can be held liable for not allowing her to be fed by mouth, since his order now leads directly (because she has no feeding tube, or IV) to her death. It's against Florida law to withhold food and water from someone deliberately .Call this what it is-euthanasia. And euthanasia is against Florida law-grounds for a lawsuit. Michael Schiavo can't legally withhold food and water by mouth from Terri either- because then DCS can take her into custody for neglect. Keep the feeding tube out. But they'd have to give her an IV or at least fluids by mouth.
They can't legally prevent her from being fed and given water by mouth ( an MD orders NPO because a patient can't swallow, or for some other medical reason. )I don't think an MD can order nothing by mouth when the patient isn't being given sustenance any other way. The doctor is euthanising the patient by doing this, euthanasia is against the law in florida. The doctor can be sued. MS can't deny sustenance by mouth either, DCS can get him for neglect.
IT IS NOT TERRI'S WISH TO BE STARVED TO DEATH.
IT IS NOT TERRI'S WISH TO PUT HER FAMILY THROUGH THIS.
If governor Bush truly can't do anything, maybe he can still go visit Terri and tell them that sincerely, face to face. I can see where it might not be legal to do anything, bur no one can argue that this is wrong, and changes need to be made.
Thank you for your reply.
Yes. He legally can, but he is a coward and won’t use it. This is the whole point. His office as Governor of Florida gives him the power of Executive Order.
Greer ordered that no one provide food and water by natural means. In those words. There is NOTHING in the Florida law providing for that - if someone can eat, then by definition they aren't in need of intervention, as you said (and I don't agree with that in the first place).
I believe that state charges against Greer should be filed now for murder. He would have to face a Grand Jury (ordinary people, not his lawyer buddies in black robes) and ultimately a trial jury. I had thought that simple impeachment of him was reasonable. But that's not enough. Judges aren't immunized from criminal charges if they commit a crime from the bench.
This has also been linked to the activities of the Scientologists in Clearwater. If true, then it explains a lot about the odd coincidences that keep popping up like the Sheriff's office. And also, if true, should be the basis of a massive RICO investigation. And Brudder Bush in D.C. wouldn't have to worry about George Greer's court "orders". Greer would be one of the targets.
Get doctor to lift the nothing by mouth order, because if Terri dies, she will have died because she was euthanized by this order ( since she has no feeding tube or other way to get sustenance. Euthanasia is against the law in Florida. The doctor can be charged/sued for practicing euthanasia, if he doesn't lift the nothing by mouth order. An IV might be able to be started on this basis as well. Felo's death law says Feeding Tubes are extraordinary measures fine, feeding by mouth is not.
It is illegal . There is no basis for it. They can't do this. Where is Jebs legal team? This is the loophole. They need to move on this NOW.
You are correct.
I said this on an earlier thread. This could be Jeb's Chappaquiddic moment. He either is up to the task of saving this woman or he isn't. I know that may sound offensive to some, as he obviously didn't cause her situation the way Kennedy did. But he has the power to save her, at great risk to himself. Right now he looks like a coward. He still has time. I'm praying for him, or his brother to rise to the occasion.
Take a look here:
New Evidence of Alleged Assault, Abuse Surfaces in Schiavo Case
The second article reveals that there is evidence that Terri acquired her brain damage by being hit in the head, WHEN SHE WAS ALREADY IN THE HOSPITAL.
Well put!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.