RUSH LIMBAUGH LIVE THREAD ( those who want an update and accurate on TERRI SCHIAVO STATE!

WABC radio ^ | MARCH 22, 2005

[sola_fide]

OK, like I said, if a feeding tube is 'life-support' treatment....why has the judge forbade anyone from even attempting to try and feed her orally?
That's a good question. Do we know for a FACT that the judge forbade this in his decision? I'll admit I haven't read the complete decision.

[conservativewasp]

So is this one incorrect?

February 23, 2005
Terri Schiavo Update
An alert reader brings to our attention some interesting information available at Terri's Fight. It is a timeline, with the important part being the first three years:

Feb 1990 - Terri Collapses in her home. May 1990 (3 months since collapse) - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St. Petersberg, Florida.

Dec 1990 - Terri taken to California for experimental implant.

Jan 1991 - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Feb 1991 - Terri moved to home with husband.

Apr 1991 - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr 1991 - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul 1991 - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

Aug 1992 - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov 1992 - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov 1992 - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

Feb 1993 - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb 1993 - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb 1993 - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb 1993 - Schiavo posts Do Not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Nov 1992 - Schivo get his cut
Feb 1993 - Schivo stop treatment
What did I miss?

[CyberAnt]

"She is risking law suit and ruin by stating it on TV"

But .. she's also protecting her life. And .. since she's risking so much - it tells me she's telling the truth.

[Peach]

And you'll notice perhaps another post where I said if we're going to have a national conversation about this matter, that's a good thing. Perhaps the only good thing to come from this.

What will be interesting is to see whether people think it's a good thing for Congress to get involved in litigating when family members disagree to remove life saving equipment. If that is the case, we're going to need a lot more judges.

You want to know how many people who are disabled are killed by dehydration? I have no idea. I don't think it's a good idea to talk about PVS patients as disabled.

I've seen concern on these threads that next the goverment/judges will be trying to kill cerebal palsy patients. That's unfortunate that people are so misinformed about what PVS is that people are being frightened about their loved ones.

Since 70-75% of the people in this country don't have Living Wills, if we should not take family members words for it that people should not be kept alive through artificial means, we are going to have a lot of people living on machines (and yes, Florida and other states consider feeding tubes life saving equipment since the patient cannot live without the tube).

I have yet to be in a room with someone on a life saving machine of any sort without said friend or family member saying "I don't want to end up like that". But if we are going to not take anyone's word for it anymore, a lot of people are going to end up just like that.

We've had two family members taken off machines/tubes based on the family's word alone. Not to sound callous, but be prepared for an unsupportable financial burden to the medical community.

[lonevoice]

And I'm telling you what was discussed on the floor of the House Sunday night. Previously I'd been saying this happened every day in America. They had doctors who said it happened thousands of times a day in America.

Really? The only medical doctor I've heard speak during the house or senate hearings was Bill Frist. He said in his experience there were less than a half dozen cases/year like this in the nation. Who did I miss?

[Peach]

No that is not correct. I'd been notified that there were busy little bees working to ahem, change the record on that web site.

This is the correct timeline:

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm

[Peach]

Bill Frist is a Senator and speaks on the floor of the Senate. Not the House.

[Peach]

Terri has no brain function left. None. Google PVS.

It's sad for people to make comparisons between her and Christopher Reeve or your brother for example. That's just sad. And not good examples. Please learn about PVS.

[lonevoice]

I think the problem in this particular case is that Florida law defines a feeding tube as "life support."

Yet at the time MS alleges that Terri said she "wouldn't want to live like that" Florida law did not include feeding tubes in the definition of artifical life support.

[Miss Marple]

Since there is differing opinion about whether she is in a pVS state or not, I am not basing my opinion on that.

If she is in a PVS state and the parents want to assume her care and since we do not have a written directive from her, what harm would allowing the parents to have her care cause? If she is NOT in a PVS state, then she should have some therapy.

What I do not understand is the hastening of her death.

If this is done with thousands of PVS patients, we need to have a national conversation. In my whole life I have only known of one death by dehydration, and it was an elderly gentleman who had suffered a massive heart attack with brain damage who was in a coma and who had left a WRITTEN directive against insertion of feeding tubes or any other artificial means. His wife and children were all in agreement, and no feeding tube was ever inserted. That is a different case from this one, and it is the only one I have ever known.

[Peach]

Terri's tube was put in before she even left the first hospital -
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Humana%20Discharge%20Summary%20050990.pdf

She could not swallow then, nor could she pass the yearly swallow tests done on her in those first three critical years when she was having rigorous therapy.

This is why no one has fed her orally. She can't do it.

[Peach]

LOL!

Glad you like it :-)

[concan]

"I have a cousin [..] My aunt has been feeding him all these years. [...] He is a brain-damaged, handicapped individual, unable to feed himself or care for himself in any capacity, and he will never recover."

Your aunt is bearing a burden. She is carrying her cross. Kudos to her. May somebody be truly compassionate enough to pick up her cross once she passes.

This is the society, I propose. This is the society I want to live in. This is a culture that teaches love and true compassion. This is a culture of life.

[Cboldt]

Not to sound callous, but be prepared for an unsupportable financial burden to the medical community.

I assume that reference is to use of assistance other than (more sophisticated and in shorter supply than) a G-tube.

As such, it's irrelevant to the Schiavo case.

[lysie]

I have yet to be in a room with someone on a life saving machine of any sort without said friend or family member saying "I don't want to end up like that"

Once again I must say, many of us have said after a wonderful meal...I never want to eat again. I'm sure you have, too. Will that be used against me or you if someday we are like Terri? I hope not.

My point, we all say things as a reaction to something we see/do, but after careful thought change our minds.

[Txsleuth]

How do you know for sure that Terri can't think?

How do you know for sure that Terri wouldn't have been able to speak if she had been able to have speech therapy all this time?

THere are way too many instances of people in different "unconsious states" such as coma and others--there was a woman on Hannity last night that had a stroke and couldn't move OR talk, but could hear and understand everything---but HER husband insisted on relentless therapy and she is fine now--this is just one example of many who can think and hear, but can't communicate---

WHAT IF Terri can think and just can't communicate the way you or I do---do you really want to take a chance that she doesn't know exactly what is being said and done, and just can't stop it?

[TAdams8591]

Ah....my post referenced COURT decisions.

As to your post...... a point, BTW, also made by Michael Schiavo, I will say to you what I would say to him: the frequency with which a particular act is committed, has absolutely NO bearing on it's moral correctness.

[lonevoice]

Bill Frist is a Senator and speaks on the floor of the Senate. Not the House.

Copying from the post you're replying to:

"The only medical doctor I've heard speak during the house or senate hearings was Bill Frist".

As I asked, is there another Medical Doctor in either the House or Senate who said during the hearings that there were thousands of cases like this? Because I did hear Bill Frist, and he said less than a half dozen.

[workerbee]

Terri has no brain function left. None.

Debated.

It's sad for people to make comparisons between her and Christopher Reeve or your brother for example.

It's my cousin. And you didn't answer the question.

Please learn about PVS.

Is Terri Schiavo a human being or not?

[First_Salute]

Do we have a Radiologist on board?

The dark area is supposed to be liquid, gone, missing Is there someone on here who really knows how to read this thing?

IIRC, one of you is a radiologist. Can you offer any opinion from one slice of Terri Schiavo's CT scan?

Sorry for the late reply. I did not log in on Saturday.

The "dark areas" are the CT density of Cerebral Spinal Fluid (CSF).

The larger butterfly-shaped area in the center is CSF within the right and left lateral ventricles. The other serpiginous areas are CSF in the subarachnoid space collecting in the sulci and in the fissures of the brain.

The amount of fluid in the vetricles is increased indicating Hydrocephalus.

The bright area within one of the ventricles would be expected to be a portion of a Ventriculoperitoneal Shunt to alleviate the hydrocephalus.

The brain tissue also shows cortical atrophy which increases the potential space between the brain tissue and that space is the filled up with CSF.

The degree of atrophy increases with age and all of us who actually lived through the 60's have some degree of cortical atrophy. The degree of cortical atrophy, however, is definitely abnormal for a woman her age

Be that as it may, you really can't make any clinical judgments as to her mental capacity just by the degree of hydrocephalus and atrophy.

I often see patients with that degree of hydrocephalus with a ventriculoperitoneal shunt in place that are doing just fine.

In addition, many elderly patients with that degree of atrophy that are doing well for their age.

Grandma might not be the sharpest pencil in the family box anymore once she gets to that degree of atrophy but you would be killing off trainloads of Grandmas if you used that degree of cortical atrophy to decide when to end their lives.