Posted on 03/22/2005 7:20:59 AM PST by Pikamax
And how much of that was ever more than smoke ?
The German right knew it was smoke. They knew the Nazis weren't going to be collectivizing their wealth.
Laissez faire may be how Americans define conservatism but it was never how Europeans defined conservatism. So to follow your logic, Louis XIV was a socialist.
This wartime capitalism of which you speak - would that be President Wilson's War Production Board, cited by many as the inspiration for both Lenin's Soviet central planning and the sundry futuristic and utopian schemes endemic in the post-WWI era?
Socialism comes in many guises - what distinguishes it from other belief systems is its ostensible elevation of the good of society as a whole over all subsidiary or individual goods.
With that characteristic, you have socialism, whatever the 'central committee' chooses to call its own particular Big Lie.
All in my not-so-humble opinion.
"Once you've build this huge army that your economy cannot support, the only thing you can do is set it off in search of plunder to sustain it."
We better keep a close eye on China!
Which are you, Democrat or Liberaltarian?
That's your answer? THAT??
In other words: you know nothing about the political and economic policies put in place by the Nazis. You cannot describe these policies as either "right" or "left" because you are ignorant about what those policies might have been.
Multiple people are posting to you with actual facts and quotations from the Nazi regime which show quite clearly that the Nazis supported a powerful central state for purposes of social engineering.
And you close your eyes to all that? Why? I'd say because you identify yourself as a Leftist, but do not want to be associated with a political party like the Nazis. Too bad.
"This wartime capitalism of which you speak - would that be President Wilson's War Production Board, cited by many as the inspiration for both Lenin's Soviet central planning and the sundry futuristic and utopian schemes endemic in the post-WWI era?"
Don't pin it on Wilson. ALL of the warring countries had controlled rationed command economies because raw material shortages were rampant and priorities had to be set. In 1915 the armies of Europe ran out of shells and there wasn't time for a "free market" "laissez faire" response when your soldiers are fighting and dying. The material needs of the armies could not be met by free market laissez faire.
Your blunder is you keep trying to impose American definitions of right and left on Europe. European conservatism never had anything to do with "laissez faire" or "free market" or "gun control" or anything that you define as conservative.
Your defintions of right and left have nothing to do with Europe's.
"Multiple people are posting to you with actual facts and quotations from the Nazi regime which show quite clearly that the Nazis supported a powerful central state for purposes of social engineering."
ALL EUROPEANS right and left, supported a powerful central state for purposes of social engineering. Free market libertarianism, what you define as conservatism, did not exist in the continental European political menu.
You post this in order to bolster your argument that the National Socialists were not socialist?
"Tens of thousands of Catholic priests were murdered in concentration camps."
As was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the outspoken anti-Nazi Lutheran pastor. From a bio: "Dietrich Bonhoeffer was born in Breslau in 1906. The son of a famous German psychiatrist, he studied in Berlin and New York City. He left the safety of America to return to Germany and continue his public repudiation of the Nazis, which led to his arrest in 1943. Linked to the group of conspirators whose attempted assassination of Hitler failed, he was hanged in April 1945. He was executed by special order of Himmler at the concentration camp at Flossenburg on April 9th, 1945, just a few days before it was liberated by the Allies."
The evil must always destroy the good, no matter whether it furthers their goals or not. It's a compulsion to them, simply because the existence of goodness reproaches their evil.
If you haven't read Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship", you might want to. It's a powerful classic, and he certainly had the moral stature, had demonstrated the moral fortitude to be a credible writer on the subject.
In an age of warring great powers there were no small government libertarians.
You said that the Nazis were socialists because they wanted a strong central state. Well, everybody in Europe wanted a strong central state, right and left. Does that mean all Europeans were socialists ?
-------------------------------------------
In the sameway that the GDR was a democratic republic?
Louis XIV wanted a strong central state for purposes of social engineering (i.e., creating a French race guerriere and annihilating the Huguenots). Does that make him a socialist ?
Exactly right - except that the American command economy was more efficient and productive than the European powers of the time.
People readily believed that such a system would be superior to the market, which appeared less 'modern'.
America, remember, was seen as the most 'progressive' state of the early 20th Century. Even by Communists.
"Any depiction of the Nazis as "socialist" collapses in the face of the unshakeable fact that fascist violence was entirely directed against the left."
First, let me say that from what I have read, yes Hitler was a "conservative". Fascism is to conservatism what Stalinism is to liberalism which is why I have to laugh whenever I hear someone call any and all democrats a communist. Both are the extremes that we as a people need to avoid because extreme anything just destroys.
Second, whether he was a liberal or a conservative does not really matter, nobody is critiquing his tax policies. His "issues" were a little deeper than that.
Norm MacDonald: In other entertainment news, one of the world's biggest stars just completed a whirlwind three week world tour. Tonight he's agreed to come to Update to tell us about it. Ladies and gentlemen, David Hasselhoff!
[Much applause for Hasselhoff who wears a leather Planet Hollywood jacket.]
David Hasselhoff: Thank you! Thank you very much! [laughs at all the applause] My recent world tour was an incredible experience. I went to twenty-one countries in just fifteen days and I've got some amazing stories to tell. In Japan, for instance- instance, I was invited to the state dinner at the Emperor's Palace. What I didn't know was the emp--
Norm MacDonald: Hey! Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Hang on a second. Did you just say Japan?
David Hasselhoff: Yes, I did.
Norm MacDonald: Yeah, well, no offense, you know, but I don't think anybody cares about Japan. Why don't you, ah, why don't you focus on the countries where you're, you know, you're popular?
David Hasselhoff: Oh. Well, in China we had an incredible experience. The entire cast of "Baywatch" was invited to the Great Wall where hundreds of thousands of Chinese people were chanting in unison, "Baywatch, Ba--"
Norm MacDonald: Whoaaaaa, whoaaa. Wait, wait. Chinese people?
David Hasselhoff: Yes, of course.
Norm MacDonald: Look, why don't we skip China? In fact, rule out all of Asia.
David Hasselhoff: Okay, okay. Well, I mean, what do you want to hear about? I mean, I've got some great stories from all over the world.
Norm MacDonald: Oh, yeah? I was thinking, you know, ah, some place where you're especially popular, you know, like in, uh, Europe.
David Hasselhoff: Oh! Well, in Italy--
Norm MacDonald: Northern Europe, Northern Europe!
David Hasselhoff: Oh, I got you. I got you. Okay. I got you. There's one country that they absolutely love me -- Norway.
Norm MacDonald: Norway?! What, are you crazy?! They like everybody in Norway! Nobody gives a damn about Norway! What the hell's wrong with ya?
David Hasselhoff: Look, ah, what's going on here? I've never seen you like this.
Norm MacDonald: Well, ahhhh, to tell you the truth, you know, I didn't want to be the one to bring it up but, uh, what about Germany? I mean, how do the - how do the Germans feel about ya?
David Hasselhoff: Well, on this trip, we actually didn't stop in Germany--
Norm MacDonald: I don't care about your stupid trip!! Look, just tell me how you would characterize -- in one sentence -- the way Germans feel about you.
David Hasselhoff: Well, I've always been fortunate to get a very positive response from the Germans--
Norm MacDonald: Oh, my God! This is no time for false modesty! We're runnin' late, we gotta wrap this thing up! Do Germans love you?
David Hasselhoff: Well, "love" is an awfully strong word...
Norm MacDonald: [hand to head] Oh, listen, David, uh... Let's say a guy had a theory, all right?
David Hasselhoff: All right.
Norm MacDonald: A theory that he's devoted several years of his life to. And let's say he has a lot of evidence to back up this theory of his.
David Hasselhoff: All right.
Norm MacDonald: [puts a large pile of documents, file folders, etc., on desk -- Hasselhoff is stunned] Now, don't you think it would just be common courtesy to help that guy out, you know, and not - not ruin his life?
David Hasselhoff: Listen, I don't know what you want me to say here, pal.
Norm MacDonald: Oh my God, here, I'll write it down. [searches his pockets for a pencil, finds one, scribbles something on a piece of paper and gives it to David] Here! Say this!
David Hasselhoff: [puzzled, reads from paper] "Germans love me."
[Camera pans quickly from Hasselhoff to a beaming MacDonald who addresses the camera.]
Norm MacDonald: Which once again proves my theory: Germans love David Hasselhoff! [Cheers and applause.] And that's the news! See you next time. Thank you, David. [fusses with his pile of documents]
David Hasselhoff: [waves good-bye] Auf wiedersehen! [?], meine liebe! Auf wiedersehen! Auf wiedersehen!
No, I'd say the German heavy industrial sector was more efficient then.
Hindenburg Germany went quite far in developing a command economy. When it is combined with wartime hate propaganda you see the beginnings of the modern totalitarian state.
That was my thought....just wonder who were the MJ's, Scott Peterson's, Robt. Blakes of Hitler's day that helped to keep everyone's focus shifted on total nonsense instead of what was happening right under their noses. "Homeland" (Security) has a Deutschland/Fatherland ring to it.
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