Posted on 03/18/2005 7:26:14 AM PST by Pendragon_6
The Army is baffled by a recent spate of vehicle accidents in Iraq - many of them rollovers involving armored Humvees - that have claimed more than a dozen lives this year.
One key concern: Soldiers lack the skills to handle the heavier Humvees and are losing control as they speed through ambush areas before insurgents detonate roadside bombs.
"An individual feels that if he goes faster he can avoid that threat," says Lt. Col. Michael Tarutani, an Army official tracking the accidents. "But now he's exceeded, first, maybe his capabilities, and then maybe the speed for those conditions."
In the past four full months, the numbers of serious vehicle accidents and fatalities in Iraq have more than doubled from the previous four months, records provided by the Army show. In the first 10 weeks of this year, 14 soldiers were killed in accidents involving Humvees or trucks. All but one died in rollovers. If that rate continues, the number of soldiers killed in such accidents this year would be almost double the 39 soldiers killed in 2004. Detailed records involving Marines were not available.
The Army is trying to determine whether the dramatic increase in the number of Humvees in use in Iraq - or an increase in the amount of miles they are being driven - might explain the higher number of accidents. It also is questioning whether the handling and center of gravity in Humvees may have been altered by armor plating bolted on in Iraq or shields added around gun turrets.
Continued
No beer...
Either this is just a media scare or it has something to do with a change to the vehicle's stability involving the modifications.
I just watched a History Channel program on the Jeep. They tried to modify the Jeep replacing the solid axles, in the late '50s, I think. They ended up with a situation where if the Jeep became even the slightest bit airborne (hit a bump), the wheels would curl toward the center of the vehicle. If you landed even the slightest bit cockeyed, voila! - even the most experienced drivers would roll over.
Took a few deaths for them to figure it out.
Only what fit in the trunk.
"If you raise the center of gravity by mounting armor plating up high, it makes a vehicle prone to rollovers at speeds over 35 mph."
It most Certainly does.
My guess is that as the war dies down, battle hardened 19 year olds have a lot more time to play with these “indestructible” toys.
It seems that by inserting a blank as compensating weight it would help in realigning the center of gravity. Any reduction in acceleration, top speed, or storage/passenger capacity would likely be an acceptable trade off. Sounds like these vehicles were 'redesigned' in the field and need some more tweaking.
Also, fear leads to over-correction in steering. Happens all the time around here stateside. Someone (usually a young driver) comes upon some debris on the interstate (usually a re-tread from a semi tire that they could drive over anyway) and they drastically yank the wheel one way, then back the other way and there you have it - roll over w/ tragic deaths.
Duh! Ya think?
You cannot add thousands of pounds of armor plate to the upper surfaces of any vehicle without effecting the handling characteristics. The Humvee is s fine vehicle, as designed, but it is not a Stryker. Dressing them up like Strykers is going to increase the rate of rollovers.
Hopefully the lives saved by the armor will more than make up for the accidental deaths. The Army needs to train the drivers that these up-armored Humvees are not the same animal they trained on back in the States.
No brainer. Take a vehicle with relitively low CG, bolt on 4500 pounds of armour plate above its CG and you get an underpowered overweight POS that rolls over if you pass gas next to it.
Next question?
The up-armored HMMWV weighs just over 10,000 lbs without ammo, armament, etc.
Both have four tires, either bias or radial.
Nah, that wouldn't have a thing to do with the additional accidnets. </sarcasm>
The media attacks against the Pentagon and Rumsfield are directly responsible for these deaths. If it wasn't for their repeated screams for Armor, the soldiers wouldn't be driving vehicles they are not familiar with!
They are diesels.
Ok they still go fairly fast over ruff roads.
" They tried to modify the Jeep replacing the solid axles, in the late '50s, I think. They ended up with a situation where if the Jeep became even the slightest bit airborne (hit a bump), the wheels would curl toward the center of the vehicle. If you landed even the slightest bit cockeyed, voila! - even the most experienced drivers would roll over."
That's when the M-38A1 Jeep was replaced by the M-151 which was a totally different vehicle. The M-151 had unit-body construction and, as you noted, had independent rear suspension that allowed the rear wheels to tuck under during heavy braking and when turning. It was particulary tricky when you got into a turn at excessive speed and tried to brake in the turn. I was fortunate to have covered several thousand miles in an M-151 without incident - it was a great little vehicle.
If surrounding air bags and the panic button on the new civilian hummers would be added onto all hummers in Iraq, maybe it would have contributed to less casualties.
A key missing element leaves this issue impossible to analyze; what are the topographies of the accident locations?
We need a lot more information about what is happening in Iraq before we can jump to conclusions. As with 'Nam, are there factors being withheld for PR reasons? Or more likely, are the factors ignored because people in the government tend to have a blind spot and not consider unintended consequences.
Yes, the same government that would muck up a socialized health care system can muck up a military operation also.
Topography, the inclines, valleys, lumps, bumps in the road.
They do.
I used to get into lots of discussions about this. Check out the keywords if you're interested.
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