Posted on 03/17/2005 8:02:15 PM PST by Lorianne
The foundations of Hitler’s bunker were uncovered during the building frenzy in Berlin that followed the reunification of Germany. An anguished debate ensued about what to do with the site, for in Germany both memory and amnesia are dangerous, each with its moral hazards. To mark the bunker’s site might turn it into a place of pilgrimage for neo-Nazis, resurgent in the East; not to mark it might be regarded as an attempt to deny the past. In the end, anonymous burial was deemed the better, which is to say the safer, option.
Nowhere in the world (except, perhaps, in Israel or Russia) does history weigh as heavily, as palpably, upon ordinary people as in Germany. Sixty years after the end of the Second World War, the disaster of Nazism is still unmistak- ably and inescapably inscribed upon almost every town and cityscape, in whichever direction you look. The urban environment of Germany, whose towns and cities were once among the most beautiful in the world, second only to Italy’s, is now a wasteland of functional yet discordant modern architecture, soulless and incapable of inspiring anything but a vague existential unease, with a sense of impermanence and unreality that mere prosperity can do nothing to dispel. Well-stocked shops do not supply meaning or purpose. Beauty, at least in its man-made form, has left the land for good; and such remnants of past glories as remain serve only as a constant, nagging reminder of what has been lost, destroyed, utterly and irretrievably smashed up.
(Excerpt) Read more at city-journal.org ...
"Nazi culture" is an oxymoron.
2. They were the most fervent anti-communist fighters the world has ever seen;
They were the most incompetent anti-communist fighters the world has ever seen being as how communist power and influence increased exponentially after they were through fighting them.
'Tis true. However, the cultural treasure found in London - also thoroughly bombed - was of no value or consequence.
That's really not true. The Allies learned from previous bombings that firestorms would erupt due to the nature of the cities (narrows streets and lanes with 5-6 stories old buildings all connected together and made of wood). Right or wrong, they knew that a firestorm would result from the bombing.
My understanding is that those fires were not even on the level of Dresden.. The Dresden fire storm happened because several weather factors being present not just the dropping of incendiaries as i remember.. But, No I am not completely aware of those fire storms.. maybe you were correct in the motive of it.. or we both were correct at different levels of hindsight.. or some other motive or motives have dropped off a really accurate Motive'ometer looking at this 60 years later.. Hindsight appears to be 20/20 but hindsight don't include the smell of the dogs of war.. nasty creatures dogs of war.. They don't smell good.. maybe thats a good thing..
I read that Dresden was not a critical military target, not so with the other citys maybe.. Even so, payback is a b!tch.. Lucky the Germans fought such a christian country that generated the Marshall plan.. any other country (like England, France) would have let them stew in their juices.. OR raped them during recovery..
The error of the Marshall Plan only became evident 40 to 60 years later.. No good deed goes unpunished.. Most of the country's the United States has "helped" over the years only ended up hating us.. Germany, France, a good part of England.. Canada.. Russia for sure.. for many reasons.. Still the U.S. has not learned that lesson.. Now, the Iraqis will end up hating us.. even more than they do already.. us being infidels like we are..
Germany and France and England too are black holes of Christian love. There may be a little gratitude there but the black hole won't let it get out.. The "HOLE" absorbs all effects of residual decency and gratitude to any benefactor.. Must be the socialist brain washing and didactic materialism.. that pervades those places.. Socialism is defacto slavery by government, we'll probably have to go save their asses from THAT too.. The work is never done for a "Doo gooder" nation... pity..
Goebbels asked for "Total War" and he got it.
When the war has started, Brits and Nazis struck a deal to keep Oxford and Cambridge and Dresden unharmed during hostilities. Dresden was evaporated February 1945. The last V2 bomb fell on London Tuesday 27th March 1945. Oxford and Cambridge remained untouched, although it was within the Nazi range, the same as London.
Nazis kept their word even after Brits broke theirs and destroyed Dresden.
I have often thought that the systematic firebombing of the German cities had a retributive aspect as well as a "warning" to other potential enemies (Soviets?), that is, a demonstration of our air abilities. I don't think there is any question that the decision to use nukes in Japan had, however small, an aspect of " observe our capabilities".
It was very anticipated, it was the second use of Harris' timed bombing waves designed to maximize the fire and then maximize casualties, he sent in 1 wave of regular fragmentation bombs to drive everybody into the shelters, then a wave of firebombs to light up the city, then delayed 20 minutes to get the civilians out of the bunkers to try to put out the fires, then another wave of fragmentation to blow them to pieces and make them go hide again. Harris felt that he could bomb Germany into signing a treaty, he was trying to prove that air power alone could win a war and that armies were a thing of the past, instead he proved that even the side of right had some people that were evil.
"Something else. You mentioned that your father fought Nazis in the Balkans for 4 years. It could be only Yugoslavia or Greece. From Croatian language reference I guess it was in former Yugoslavia.
Was your father with Royalist Chetniks or with Tito's Communists?"
You'll have to wait for the book. BTW, from your several slight grammatical slips I'd guess your first language was not English. So....where'd Canada let you in from?
The real historical lession is that it is much better to be an American enemy than American friend. America cares about enemies and lets friends down the river.
Until the unification with East German basket case, Germany was much better off than England and France, U.S. allies.
During the Balkan civil wars, U.S. assisted ALL WWII foes in the Balkans (Croatians, Muslims, Albanians) and destroyed the only ally (Serbs) diplomatically, economically and finally through military action.
Croatia who downed more than 120 U.S. planes in WWII got military assistance (including USAF) to complete the ethnic cleansing of Serbs. Serbia, who saved more than 500 U.S. airmen in WWII got bombed for 78 days by USAF under false accusations of ethnic cleansing.
Balkans is not the only blind spot. Ask any Hmong or Cambodian of value of being an American friend. ( Prince Sirik Matak's letter to Ambassador Dean may do)
To be cynical, the wisest thing any country can do is to declare war on America and her future will be secured. The rest should study history and learn from other nations mistakes.
-OR- it was Pericles message to the German people, as it were..
"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."-Pericles (430 B.C.)
See comments below
'1. They were unrivalled enemies of the type of hedonist kitsch 'pop culture' that passes for 'art' in the West today;
"Nazi culture" is an oxymoron.'
Did I ever use the term? NO. Merely pointed out the above. NEVER said they offered a palatable alternative. Germanized Roman-style paganism, yes.
'2. They were the most fervent anti-communist fighters the world has ever seen;
They were the most incompetent anti-communist fighters the world has ever seen being as how communist power and influence increased exponentially after they were through fighting them.'
Hitler was that incompetent, yes. But, if he had let his generals run Barbarossa, the outcome might have been quite different (though still exponentially BLOODIER than the Krauts EVER dreamed it would be before invading). And you forget how those friends of the commies from across the sea poured jillions of tons of vehicles and materiel into Uncle Joe's coffers after 12/7/1941.
Consider this your daily history lesson.
You're welcome.
later
See #31
That a rap musician might be the unrivalled enemy of Britney Spears does not mean one has found a admirable trait in said rap musician.
Hitler was that incompetent, yes. But, if he had let his generals run Barbarossa,
If the generals weren't Nazis they would have stood up to Hitler.
There is nothing admirable about Nazis. Not a thing. Nada. No good traits. The only possible use remembering them serves is as a warning to the potential depravity of man, and the horror that awaits when one rejects God.
"There is nothing admirable about Nazis. Not a thing. Nada. No good traits. The only possible use remembering them serves is as a warning to the potential depravity of man, and the horror that awaits when one rejects God."
Fair enough. But they continue to fascinate because they are used as the epitome of the ultimate evil (like Joe Stalin wasn't).
Once one digs deeper, however, the 'NAZI Mystique' is wiped away and we see a bunch of mostly banal psycopathic murderers and those who obeyed their orders.
A ruthless system well-known in ancient times, but a true shock to the so-called emasculated 'civilized' world of the West in the 20th century.
Thank God for Winston Churchill!!
Very true!!
I agree- "terror" bombing (of residential areas, etc.) was a stupid waste. As I recall my WWII history, Hitler's ceaseless attacks on RAF airfields and aircraft production facilities had the RAF- and consequenly England- on the ropes. Then I believe the RAF mounted a daring raid on Berlin, using a few off-target German bombs that fell on residential London as an excuse. Hitler, in a fury, ordered the Luftwaffe to divert their attacks to London in revenge for the attack on Berlin. This gave the RAF the breathing space they needed to recover- so in a sense, Hitler's bombing of civilian London cost him the Battle of Britain.
I always wondered if Churchill ordered the raid on Berlin hoping Hitler would respond just that way.
Ah yes, the children of Dresden.... What of the children of London, Amsterdam, Warsaw, Kharkov, Smolensk.......Makes you wonder why a nation of otherwise smart people would follow the leadership of a madman. Like all others before or since, they started the war because they thought they could win. They thought wrong. The blood of the children of Dresden is smeared on the hands of Germans, not the Allies.
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