The Specters Haunting Dresden

City Journal ^ | Winter 2005 | Theodore Dalrymple

[Lorianne]

The foundations of Hitler’s bunker were uncovered during the building frenzy in Berlin that followed the reunification of Germany. An anguished debate ensued about what to do with the site, for in Germany both memory and amnesia are dangerous, each with its moral hazards. To mark the bunker’s site might turn it into a place of pilgrimage for neo-Nazis, resurgent in the East; not to mark it might be regarded as an attempt to deny the past. In the end, anonymous burial was deemed the better, which is to say the safer, option.

Nowhere in the world (except, perhaps, in Israel or Russia) does history weigh as heavily, as palpably, upon ordinary people as in Germany. Sixty years after the end of the Second World War, the disaster of Nazism is still unmistak- ably and inescapably inscribed upon almost every town and cityscape, in whichever direction you look. The urban environment of Germany, whose towns and cities were once among the most beautiful in the world, second only to Italy’s, is now a wasteland of functional yet discordant modern architecture, soulless and incapable of inspiring anything but a vague existential unease, with a sense of impermanence and unreality that mere prosperity can do nothing to dispel. Well-stocked shops do not supply meaning or purpose. Beauty, at least in its man-made form, has left the land for good; and such remnants of past glories as remain serve only as a constant, nagging reminder of what has been lost, destroyed, utterly and irretrievably smashed up.

[nonliberal]

To mark the bunker’s site might turn it into a place of pilgrimage for neo-Nazis,

From a historical perspective, Hitler's bunker would be a cool piece of history. The above argument would be like saying that Confederate sympathizers might descend on Cold Harbor. It does not change the historical significance.

[Tribune7]

There is no equivilency between the Confederacy and the Nazis. There were admirable things about the Confederates. There is nothing admirable about the Nazis.

[nonliberal]

I am not making moral equivalence I am just demonstrating the absurdity of the argument.

[Defend the Second]

Having spent time in Germany, I can vouch for the sense of unease most Germans feel about anything that happened from 1918 to 1945, but I totally disagree with the author about the beauty of Germany. Most of Germany was nearly the most beautiful places I have ever been. Much of this article reads like a paper by a too-earnest philosophy major, dressed in black and wearing his angst on his sleeve. Most people in Germany, like anywhere else, go about their lives without the navel-gaving this guy seems to live for.

I visited Obersalvberg, Hitler's "mountain fortress" in Bavaria, and stood on the slope where his house once stood. There is no obvious sign that a house was ever there. When the Americans left the mountain in 1995, the Bavarians came in, blew up the foundations of the house, carted it away and buried it all in a secret location.

[KellyAdmirer]

When everybody's motives are questioned about their opinions on any subject, as is the case with this author, true thought is impossible.

[Ostlandr]

Dresden was my family's ancestral home (pre-WWI.) From what I've read and seen the entire old city was basically a World Heritage Site.
While part of me wants to believe that the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were necessary to win the war, another part of me thinks they were no more than brutal payback.
Was the price of victory (in this case, trying to shut down factories by burning the workers alive in their homes) too high? No, the German people were not "innocent"- but they were still human beings.
Even in a war for our very survival, should we stoop to burning women and children alive? It would be so easy to do- send B-52s loaded with incendiaries over Damascus, Tehran and Pyonyang. Burn all three cities to the ground, kill everyone- men, women, children.
Should we? Will we?

[Panzerfaust]

I think the Germans got off lightly. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind. Like the Japanese, they had to learn the price of hubris.

[Ostlandr]

Und der kinder?

[DTA]

>>>>>>While part of me wants to believe that the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were necessary to win the war, another part of me thinks they were no more than brutal payback.<<<<<<

Destruction of Dresden by massive fire storms was not necessary in military terms. It was wanton destruction without military necessity. Refugees within were deliberatelly targetted. DRESDEN is crime against humanity.

Destroyed cultural trasure belonged to the entire humankind, not merely to the German people.

[Al Simmons]

"There is nothing admirable about the Nazis."

I probably shouldn't, but here goes:

1. They were unrivalled enemies of the type of hedonist kitsch 'pop culture' that passes for 'art' in the West today;

and, more importantly,

2. They were the most fervent anti-communist fighters the world has ever seen;

Having said that, their evil far exceeded any good they did.*


*My father fought them for 4 years in the Balkans, other family members were jailed by the Nazis and one of my uncles was summarily shot by them in a mass-reprisal against civilians. If I had been alive back then I would have fought them too. There's my credentials so spare yourself a useless flamefest.

[Al Simmons]

I don't know what to make of you. On the one hand, you have a beautiful Churchill quote on your page; OTOH, you have a Canadien flag fluttering. I would probably not have bombed Dresden - the British night bombing of the city was clearly for revenge; the American daylight bombing of the docks and railway areas were legitimate.

But.

One thing.

And get this STRAIGHT.

ITS SPELLED 'MAN'KIND.

Don't be PC.

And don't go wobbly on us.

P.S. And, OBTW, its still 'PEKING'. That other name for the Chinese capitol was birthed by the NYT in and around 1975 (I recall it well).

[DTA]

Winston Churchill forbade Mad Bomber Harris to participate on V-Day parade in London. He considered that Harris' presence would tarnish the victory celebration.

Dresden was considered a blot even then when the Allies wounds were still fresh. There is no reason why we should not speak about it openly sixty years later.

Hope this helps.

[Al Simmons]

"Winston Churchill forbade Mad Bomber Harris to participate on V-Day parade in London. He considered that Harris' presence would tarnish the victory celebration.

Dresden was considered a blot even then when the Allies wounds were still fresh. There is no reason why we should not speak about it openly sixty years later.

Hope this helps."

No, not really, because I basically agree with what you said above (as I thought I had indicated in my earlier post).

What you did not address is why you used a PC term like the phony 'humankind' instead of MANkind? You might not realize it, but little slipups like this is how we conservatives often 'OUT' a DU troll. (Now, if we were only speaking some - any - language other than English, the point would be moot because there would be a neutral third-person term for 'Mankind') *SIGH*

Zazelim da govorim Hrvatski u ovakvim momentima. (I wish I was speaking Croatian at moments likje this).

[DTA]

>>>>>>What you did not address is why you used a PC term like the phony 'humankind' instead of MANkind? You might not realize it, but little slipups like this is how we conservatives often 'OUT' a DU troll.<<<<<<

I am conservative enough to use any language I find fit. It is what I say, not words I use. Attitude that makes liberals mad :-)

Something else. You mentioned that your father fought Nazis in the Balkans for 4 years. It could be only Yugoslavia or Greece. From Croatian language reference I guess it was in former Yugoslavia.

Was your father with Royalist Chetniks or with Tito's Communists?

[hosepipe]

[ While part of me wants to believe that the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were necessary to win the war, another part of me thinks they were no more than brutal payback. ]

No it was a mistake.. They no idea the incendiaries they dropped there would have nearly the catastrophic effect it did.. The fire storm that happened was not anticipated.. Tokyo was another matter.. Even there houses made of rice paper and wood went up like a whirlwind.. but that event was lamented but (not so much) as Dresden was.. As I said what happened at Dresden was not anticipated.. War is not pretty and Nazi warriors would have made Attila blush.. or maybe orgasmic..

All that can be said is its long OVER.. That said most/many German citizens and Japanese citizens were fanatics.. The dogs of war are filthy beasts.. and it can be argued they should be..

[DTA]

>>>>>As I said what happened at Dresden was not anticipated.<<<<

Ever heard of "fan pattern" bombing?

"Toward the fall of 1944, as the Allies achieved supremacy in the skies over Germany and could concentrate their fire undeterred, they succeeded with regularity in provoking firestorms - in Kassel, Würzburg, Darmstadt, Heilbronn, Wuppertal, Weser, Magdeburg, and culminating in the incredible butchery of Dresden. The Allies experimented on the best way to provoke the desired effect. Different bombing patterns were tried to give the deadliest concentration of incendiary bombs (the optimum was found to be a "fan" pattern which was then used on Dresden)."

The effect was like nuclear bomb, only without radiation.

[Calvin Locke]

The effect was like nuclear bomb, only without radiation.

THC had something on WMDs Wednesday night.

Dresden got off easy. 25K-40K killed. Tokyo lost 100K in its firebomb raid. All told, I think the piece
said Japan had over 200mi2 burned by firing bombing.

Oh, and the Dresden raid was made up of 3 waves: pathfinders, convention bombs intended to blow off the roofs
of buildings for access and to provide kindling, and finally the thermite.

The Dresden raid's "success" sparked the firebombing of Japan. Also more effective at disrupting
industry, since a lot of Japan's production came from cottage industries in the cities.

[thedilg]

[While part of me wants to believe that the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were necessary to win the war, another part of me thinks they were no more than brutal payback.
Was the price of victory (in this case, trying to shut down factories by burning the workers alive in their homes) too high? No, the German people were not "innocent"- but they were still human beings.]

I was asked to write a book that addresses the fighter versus the bomber. In my research the very point you make was addressed. The raid on Dresden was not for vengeance. Sir Arthur Harris, in charge of RAF Bomber Command, was a dedicated disciple of General Douhet's mistaken theory. Douhet preached that strategic bombardment against a nation will cause the people to demand capitulation. (i.e. capitulation without the messy need for land invasion) Germany, the RAF and the US became strong advocates of his theory.

There was no remorse within RAF bomber command about Dresden or Hamburg. To the contrtary they only tried to emulate their success. Late in 1943 Sir Harris wrote a note to Churchill stating that the RAF Bombers had totally or largely destroyed 38 major German cities. He told Churchill that with the destruction of the 39th city, Berlin, Germany would capitulate. It took great faith to belive that with 38 cities in ruin that one more would lead to capitulation. The Douhet disciples had great faith. According to Harris, it would cost the RAF and the US 500 bombers but the Germans the war. The US did not join the RAF in this effort. Berlin was ruined at the cost of 1,700 RAF bombers. No capitulation. Berlin continued to function despite the ruin.

The RAF and the US bombers did not achieve most of their objectives while losing almost 30,000 bombers and about 150,000 bomber aircrew casualties. The Germans also tried to bomb London and Moscow into surrender, with the same non-success.

The US bombers destroyed the German synthetic fuel facilities late in 1944 and early 1945. This occurred when Germany was already in the process of defeat from many causes. It was the strategic bombers major success in the European part of WW II.

According to the bomber people, strategic bombardment won the Japanese war. Of course there were skeptics that felt the nuclear weapon had a little to do with it. It was a great motivator until other Nations could return the favor.

Godspeed, The Dilg

[August West]

Und die Kinder?