Posted on 03/11/2005 4:25:34 PM PST by gopwinsin04
With avenues to keep Terri Schiavo alive closing in the state of Florida, they were opening in the nation's capital Thursday . The tide turned decidedly in favor of the parents who want to prolong their brain-damaged daughters life.
Just a scant eight days before the court ordered deadline to remove her feeding tube, Republicans on Capitol Hill rallied around the case that has become a 'cause celebre' of conservative and religious groups.
Florida Sen. Mel Martinez and Rep. Dave Weldon's bill to require the incapacitated without living wills to be appointed attorneys before life support is terminated, introduced on Tuesday had 103 sponsors in the House and seven sponsors in the Senate.
Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a surgeon, is trying to get it to the Senate floor without it being heard in committte. House Majority Leader Tom Delay is working to get the bill in front of the Judiciary committee by Wednesday.
It was unclear whether US Congressional Democrats would try and stop the bill. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has said he prefers for it to be heard in committee.
Sam Brownback, a Kansas Republican, said he hopes for full Democratic support and has heard no direct oppositon.
George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, sounded resigned to the fact that politics in the nations capital would delay the removal of Schiavo's feeding tube the way it did in 2003, when Florida's governor and legislature stepped in.
'It is certainly disheartening to see them falling all over themselves to pander to these groups,' Felos said. 'It's a massive campaign of fear and misinformation. It's a repeat of Terri's law'
The attorney for the Schiavo parents had the opposite view. 'We are very encouraged by what is happening in Congress right now, said David Gibbs.
'The family is profoundly grateful'
(Excerpt) Read more at sptimes.com ...
Now, regarding praying to Saints:
Certainly, Jesus is the perfect intercessor. However, Scripture encourages intercessory prayer "join me by your prayers to God on my behalf." (Rom 15:30) "...we will always pray for you." (2 Th 3:1) " ..making supplication for all the saints and for me.." (Eph 6:18-19). Since the Lord wants us to pray for each other (see also Lk 6:28), there is nothing else to say.
Saints are NOT dead. They are very much alive in heaven. When Jesus told the good thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise (Lk 23:43), He didn't suggest that he would be with Him as a corpse in paradise. Also, see Mk 9:4.
Also, let me quote from an Apologetic forum:
"Isn’t Jesus the only mediator between God and man? Yes, but as Christians, we are all called to intercede for each other, which pleases God, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:1-4. This intercession does not stop when one dies. No one prays to dead saints, because those that are in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead.
Prayer to the saints can be summarized in a few simple steps. 1) The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (James 5:16). 2) Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). 3) Those in heaven are part of the mystical body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1). 4) Thus, they stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to Him (Revelation 5:8), and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession between members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Timothy 2:1-4), and even commanded by Him (John 15:17). It does not diminish Christ's role as the one mediator, but manifests it."
To conclude, since Scripture encourages us to pray for each other, and since Saints are not dead, it is perfectly OK to pray (in the sense of asking a favor) to Saints and they will intercede for us.
Let's pray for Terri.
"I have no problem with her passing on, she will be going to a much better existence than she has here, but she doesn't deserve to suffer in the process."
I agree with what you said. That is exactly what bothers me the most about the whole case.
Three of the apostles were witnesses.
Granted, we don't know if Jesus summoned them or if they were sent by God through Jesus' prayer, or something else, but the fact remains that Moses and Elijah did talk (communion of the saints) to Jesus, and they no longer dwelled on this earth in the ordinary understanding of such.
The bible doesn't tell us, but it wouldn't be too far to infer that they were interceding for Jesus that he would have the strength to complete his mission.
That proves that they weren't really "dead" and had some form of consciousness, probably transcending time and space in a way that we cannot fathom.
This has been an amazing story. One truly has to think that God is on her side. It is amazing that she is still alive. Hopefully this all turns out well. You just never know.
>>due process
"Due process" has been bastardized to the point that merely having a court date is considered "due process".
Good for you! I have had one for many years. Cost me $75. It's a very simple document.
The sisters made a novena to St. Joseph and an old man showed up with a donkey and built them a beautiful spiral staircase with pegs and disappeared without asking for any money. They cannot identify the source of the hardwood that he used.
The staircase still exists after about 100 years and is now privately owned.
I found the website from where he could have read the story practically ver batim.
I also found an atheist website that shot holes in the story.
You can look it all up on the net if you want to think out of your box a little.
I decided if it was all right for the Sisters of Loretto of Santa Fe to ask St. Joseph for help 100 year ago, far be it from me to pooh pooh it just because it isn't explicitly in the bible.
I thought about posting the story in the religion section but opted not to throw pearls before swine. I hope I have not thrown any of my pearls to you. If so, please return them to me unblemished and we'll call it a draw.
Inalienable human rights are at the top. States rights come next.
I'm more worried about Terri right now than I am any antichrist in the nonexistent temple in Jerusalem which may or may not be rebuilt.
I found a kind soul who will join me in a novena for Terri which is better than bickering about something no one knows for sure whether it pleases God or not.
Unlike you, I do not know it all nor do I expect to in this life and perhaps not in the next.
Just as many, perhaps more, Christians who have asked the saints for favors have received them in miraculous ways. The glory redounds to God.
It really seems to upset you that people, and I especially, will not obey you in this regard. That is a sign of a controlling personality. God gives us more free will than you would seem to.
What do you really want? Do you want to start your own little church where everybody is obedient to you? Do you want all catholics and orthodox to leave their churches and come follow you?
More insulting than calling me a "swine"? I am not namecalling. I am describing a behavior.
Why not welcome the prayers of Muslims to Allah? Would you welcome their prayers to save Terri? Do you see how this would obscure whether the God of the Bible or the God of Islam answered the prayer?
Do you understand that prayer is not some magic trick to get what you want from God? Prayer is intended for our benefit, to align our will with God's so that He can answer prayer that is in His will.
You can do what you want. I will sleep easy knowing that I warned you and others of what the Bible says about doing your own will and trying to worship God your own way.
I do not need anyone to follow me. Follow Jesus!
He is the One Who warned against copying vain pagan practices in prayer and worship. (See Matthew 6:7.)
I did not call you a swine. But I should not have told you the story for the same reason I didn't post it in the religion section. You didn't like the story and called it a false miracle. Here is what I posted. It was not my intention to call you a swine directly. It did rather turn out that way as you turned on me and rent me, just like the bible says will happen when you cast your pearls to the wrong people.
"I thought about posting the story in the religion section but opted not to throw pearls before swine (meaning those in there who love to tear catholics to shreds). I hope I have not thrown any of my pearls to you. If so, please return them to me unblemished and we'll call it a draw." I guess there's no way I can get my pearls back now. That story meant a lot to me.
Would you welcome their prayers to save Terri?
I'm neutral regarding that. I certainly would not presume to tell them not to pray for Terri or how to pray for Terri. Why bring them into this?
Do you understand that prayer is not some magic trick to get what you want from God?
I most certainly do. I also understand that God is far more merciful than a lot of his followers.
He is the One Who warned against copying vain pagan practices in prayer and worship. (See Matthew 6:7.)
Matthew 6:7: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking"
That is not the same as asking the saints for their intercession any more than it was a vain repetition to pray for nine days for the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
You can do what you want. I will sleep easy knowing that I warned you and others of what the Bible says about doing your own will and trying to worship God your own way.
Oh, dear. I worship God in the Roman Catholic way; that is certainly not my own way. I would never have come up with that all by myself.
I will sleep easier knowing that I finally got my picture of St. Germaine framed and put up on my wall. She is the patron of the suffering and abused. I haven't asked for her help much yet because she suffered way beyond what has been laid on me, but I do know abuse. I will ask her to protect me from your abusive behavior in trying to bully and intimidate me. Warn me? Of what? What will happen to me if I don't do it your way?
"Where exactly does it say in the Bible that we are to be guided by Bible only? If it really is 'Scripture alone', it must say so somewhere in the Scripture, right?"
Tons of places. Jesus rose from the dead, proving He is God. HE says the Old Testament is the Word of God, that Genesis is accurate, Noah's flood happened, sodom and Gommorrah happened, that all three parts of the OT (Law, Psalms, and Prophets) spoke of Him. He said the Holy Sspirit would bring back to the New testament Apostles what He had taught them, placing a "stamp of approval" on theri writings. As God, He should know, right?
So we to to that word and we see what God has revealed to us about the Word. We find that it alone is the final authority in matters. The Bereans were commended for comparing everything they heard with Scripture. The Apostles called each others' writings Scripture.
2 Tim.3:16 says the word of God is inspired by God. 1 Pet.1:19-21 says that the Word did not originate by them, but that the Holy Spirit was speaking through them.
Tradition is not necessarily wrong, but it must not contradict the written word. Scripture is external to us. Revealed. Given by God, to men. We are told not to add to it nor take away even one tiny letter. We are commanded to study it and meditate on it. It is inerrant, but we are sinners. Our traditions, or opinions must be subject to the Bible's Divine nature.
It is the Word of God because it was proven to be the Word of God. Jesus was correct about it, because He raised Himself from the dead, proving He is God. What He says about our only source of authority must be true.
There are teachers in the Body, but no man, no group, is to be above another in the sense of having their opinions placed on par with Scripture. Why? Because they are sinners, and their word is not inerrant, but the Bible is "inspired of God and useful for" instruction, reproof, edification. They can teach the Word, but when they contradict that sole authority given by God, all are to compare what they say with the written Word.
Paul in Galatians 1 says if any one, even an angel, gives any message other than his message, they are anathema. All 66 books in the Bible speak of Christ, and His loving death and resurrection for us. We are offered forgiveness. We don't deserve it. And yet He HAS reconciled us with the Father. ANY message which adds to this, or takes from it, is wrong. Scripture is the SOLE basis of our authority. Scripture alone is declared to be THE Word of God by Jesus and the Prophets and Apostles.
You will find any group which comes and adds new books,those books contradict the original ones. If they add their teachings as a "must" to follow, they contradict Scripture. If traditions develop which contradict the sole written revelation in the Word, they are wrong.
We learn who the Lord is and what He wants through the Word, not from errant men. Our pastors do sin, however, but when they preach the message of the Word of God about Jesus Christ and what He has done for us, it is that Word which the Holy Spirit uses to engender faith in us.
I hope that helps a bit.
"I decided if it was all right for the Sisters of Loretto of Santa Fe to ask St. Joseph for help 100 year ago, far be it from me to pooh pooh it just because it isn't explicitly in the bible."
You make several errors in reasoning.
1. Just because the Bible does not list you every single instance of every single possible opportunity of doing wrong, does not thereby give you endorsement by God to sin. ""But Mommy, why are you mad? You said not to paint the walls red. I did'nt, I painted the floor!"
2. Just because the Bible records something, does not mean it always endorses it. Some acts recorded in Scripture are evil. So too, just because these Sisters did something, does NOT give YOU the authority to disregard God's Word. They were wrong, they gave you the wrong example, and you learn that ONLY from the Bible, which is God's inspired revelation.
2. The Bible DOES expressly state that the ONLY mediator between you and the Father is Jesus, not Joseph. You cannot get to the Father through Joseph or Mary, only through Jesus, through praying to Him.
3. The Bible DOES expressly teach that only Jesus was sinless. No one else is, no not one, not Joseph or Mary. They too needed a Savior. They are humans, and not God. They are not omnipotent, not omniscient, not omnipresent.
4. The Bible expressly says "Thou shalt have NO other Gods before Me." It says we are to ask HIM, not others who we elevate to a status where WE think they have power, when in GOD'S determination, they don't have that power. HE is God, not them.
5. The Bible also expressly states there are counterfeits, liars, deceivers, wolves, demonic kingdoms wishing to counteract every real and true act. When you read Scripture, you find God gives discernment through His Word alone. His Word is the means through which the Holy Spirit operates. He does NOT work outside of that or contrary to that.
6. It is not a casual matter, as you indicate, but very serious. A Christian is to be taught the Word, stay in fellowship, grow in faith through the Word, and put to death these false doctrines of the sinful nature which still want to rebel against our Savior. You do not want out too late that you are in a group with beliefs contrary to Scripture. It is a matter of eternal importance. They will tell you they are fine, but YOU are accountable to read the Word, and compare what they saya with the truth of Scripture. Jesus is the Truth, He died for you, loves you, and wants you praying to Him. He even tells us the Spirit prays in us with words we can't even understand. He Himself is our constant Intercessor. ALL of Scripture points us to HIM, not man.
You make what is called a hermeneutical error, or one of interpretation, which is easily detectible.
The passages you quote are taken out of the context. YOU are saying they mean it is okay to apply those instructions for US to pray, to therefore pray to the saints. You make illogical, and so false, conclusions.
Every quote is part of a bigger thought. You have to determine what did the author of that passage want to say to his hearers. Then how can that apply to me.
Those authors of ALL the quotes you give all held that a "righteous" man is one who's faith is in the righteousness of JESUS imputed to Him. Because of that death, they trusted in Christ alone for salvation, and one of the gifts of that salvation is that we are His children,and HE, as God, Second Person of the Trinity, hears our prayers.
Each of those passages contexts were written to Christians, assuming they don't have tosay each time, "Oh remember of course you're only praying to the Father through Jesus." "Pray fervently, but oh yes, remember not to pray to anyone onther than God." That was UNDERSTOOD. They had taught that there is ONLY one God. Jesus is the ONLY Mediator.
You say "Prayer to the saints can be summarized in a few simple steps. 1) The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful."
You mix categories. Prayer CANNOT be to anyone other than God. Why? Only He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and HE says we are to pray to HIM. "When you pray, say, 'Our Father..." So there is NOT a category of prayer "to the saints."
Saints are departed Christians, but they a different category than Christians who are alive, who ARE commanded to pray for each other.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.