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To: unlearner

Now, regarding praying to Saints:

Certainly, Jesus is the perfect intercessor. However, Scripture encourages intercessory prayer "join me by your prayers to God on my behalf." (Rom 15:30) "...we will always pray for you." (2 Th 3:1) " ..making supplication for all the saints and for me.." (Eph 6:18-19). Since the Lord wants us to pray for each other (see also Lk 6:28), there is nothing else to say.

Saints are NOT dead. They are very much alive in heaven. When Jesus told the good thief, "This day you will be with me in paradise (Lk 23:43), He didn't suggest that he would be with Him as a corpse in paradise. Also, see Mk 9:4.

Also, let me quote from an Apologetic forum:

"Isn’t Jesus the only mediator between God and man? Yes, but as Christians, we are all called to intercede for each other, which pleases God, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:1-4. This intercession does not stop when one dies. No one prays to dead saints, because those that are in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead.

Prayer to the saints can be summarized in a few simple steps. 1) The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (James 5:16). 2) Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27). 3) Those in heaven are part of the mystical body of Christ, and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Hebrews 12:1). 4) Thus, they stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to Him (Revelation 5:8), and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession between members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Timothy 2:1-4), and even commanded by Him (John 15:17). It does not diminish Christ's role as the one mediator, but manifests it."

To conclude, since Scripture encourages us to pray for each other, and since Saints are not dead, it is perfectly OK to pray (in the sense of asking a favor) to Saints and they will intercede for us.

Let's pray for Terri.


241 posted on 03/13/2005 1:12:25 PM PST by Joanna Najfeld (Pray for Terri and fight for Terri!)
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To: Joanna Najfeld
I already answered all of these things clearly, plainly and concisely in posts 218 and 233.

Our comfort in regard to believers who "sleep" in Jesus, is not that we can carry on discourse with them. We cannot. Our comfort is that there will be a resurrection of all believers in which we will be reunited with loved ones, and meet the saints who have gone before us.

While there are many prayers recorded in the Bible, hundreds of them, there is not even a single prayer addressed to anyone but God. There is no (positive) example of communicating with anyone who has physically died.
243 posted on 03/13/2005 1:36:43 PM PST by unlearner
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To: Joanna Najfeld

You make what is called a hermeneutical error, or one of interpretation, which is easily detectible.

The passages you quote are taken out of the context. YOU are saying they mean it is okay to apply those instructions for US to pray, to therefore pray to the saints. You make illogical, and so false, conclusions.

Every quote is part of a bigger thought. You have to determine what did the author of that passage want to say to his hearers. Then how can that apply to me.

Those authors of ALL the quotes you give all held that a "righteous" man is one who's faith is in the righteousness of JESUS imputed to Him. Because of that death, they trusted in Christ alone for salvation, and one of the gifts of that salvation is that we are His children,and HE, as God, Second Person of the Trinity, hears our prayers.

Each of those passages contexts were written to Christians, assuming they don't have tosay each time, "Oh remember of course you're only praying to the Father through Jesus." "Pray fervently, but oh yes, remember not to pray to anyone onther than God." That was UNDERSTOOD. They had taught that there is ONLY one God. Jesus is the ONLY Mediator.

You say "Prayer to the saints can be summarized in a few simple steps. 1) The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful."

You mix categories. Prayer CANNOT be to anyone other than God. Why? Only He is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, and HE says we are to pray to HIM. "When you pray, say, 'Our Father..." So there is NOT a category of prayer "to the saints."

Saints are departed Christians, but they a different category than Christians who are alive, who ARE commanded to pray for each other.


260 posted on 03/15/2005 2:11:15 AM PST by gentlestrength (.)
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To: Joanna Najfeld

One more example. You're trying to be logical, yet would fail Logic 101 with your fallacies.
You're saying, A)Since "this", and B)Since "that", therefore that equals c) "thus."

You're saying A)since there are cars, and b)since there are elephants, C)therefore we should move to Jupiter.
Huh??? you ask. Exactly! It doesn't make sense! One has nothing to do with the other!
But your this and your that are in two distinct and non-blendable categories. A this is not a that. Nor is a that a this.

YOU say: " A)since Scripture encourages us to pray for each other, and b)since Saints are not dead, C) therefore it is perfectly OK to pray (in the sense of asking a favor) to Saints and they will intercede for us.

No!! Category "A" and Category "B" are not synonymous according to Scripture. Just because we pray for each other here, it does not follow that we therefore pray for departed Christians. AND most importantly, it does not mean that those departed Christians can, should, or will have any intercession for us.

Instead, Jesus taught us how to pray, and Who to pray to, and what prayer is.

When something seems like an answer to prayer, but that prayer has been prayed to a false god, or in contradiction to God's Word and prayed "to a saint," the reasons for the answer according to Scripture are:
1. The demonic workings, to try to convince you the false teaching is true;
2. Coincidence;
3. God in grace responding even though you were wrong;
4. And definitely not because of a departed believer in Christ.


261 posted on 03/15/2005 2:27:35 AM PST by gentlestrength (.)
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