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Opinion: Apple -- Here to Stay
MacCentral ^ | March 08, 2005 | Don Tennant

Posted on 03/08/2005 12:06:04 PM PST by r5boston

Nearly a decade ago, just a few months after Microsoft shipped Windows 95, I asked Bill Gates if it was a conscious decision in the development of that product to give Windows more of a Mac look and feel. Of course I knew he'd say it wasn't, but I couldn't resist asking. "There was no goal even to compete with Macintosh," Gates proclaimed. "We don't even think of Macintosh as a competitor."

That was a crock, so I pressed the issue a little. I asked him how he accounted for the widespread perception that Windows 95 looked a lot like Mac 88, and whether the similarity was just a coincidence. I didn't expect a sobbing confession of mimicry, but I thought it would be cool to see how he'd respond. Surprisingly enough, Gates shifted gears and became more forthcoming.

(Excerpt) Read more at macworld.com ...


TOPICS: Technical
KEYWORDS: apple; bendover4macs; billgatesisaborg; billgatesknowsyourip; bluescreenofdeath; dosindisguise; downgradetoxp; gays4macs; mac; macandpcssuckequally; maccult; macmoonies; macs4bigots; macsr4gays; macuser; macvspcwhocares; microcrap; microsoft; onyourkneesforbillg; patchmypcsystemdaily; pccrap; pcvirusmagnet; pencilneckpcgeeks; resistanceisfutile; slowdownmypcwithxp; usb2isajoke; winblows; xpbloatware; youwillbeasimilated
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To: Last Visible Dog
Converting a WMA file to Apple's format makes the file no longer a WMA file and degrades the quality.

I doubt you could tell the difference.

301 posted on 03/09/2005 6:07:56 PM PST by Petronski (This is the Serengeti, heart of the Dark Continent, where Bar Codes roam free...)
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To: Last Visible Dog
Show me the factors, other than the little Apple logo, where the Ipod shines.

Size, usability, connectivity with the desktop, cross-platform operation, support for AAC (the best format)...

302 posted on 03/09/2005 6:09:05 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Last Visible Dog
Actually you are correct - when you do the math the Ipod is over THREE TIMES AS EXPENSIVE AS MY NOMAD!

The statement "Half the price for twice the storage" is an expression of four times the cost per unit storage.

Your admission that it is closer to three is quite a concession.

303 posted on 03/09/2005 6:09:32 PM PST by Petronski (This is the Serengeti, heart of the Dark Continent, where Bar Codes roam free...)
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To: Last Visible Dog
Mac's memory management was a joke and Mac's did not do multitasking until the late 1990's - that is why the Mac has never been considered a business machine.

We're talking about the evolution of the GUI and who took from whom, not what's under the hood.

But if being crap under the hood mattered, then Windows would have fallen to OS/2.

304 posted on 03/09/2005 6:11:05 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Last Visible Dog
Mac's memory management was a joke and Mac's did not do multitasking until the late 1990's

I just reread this. Uh, yes it did. It also did multiprocessing. What it didn't do was preemptive multitasking with protected memory and symmetrical multiprocessing.

305 posted on 03/09/2005 6:15:21 PM PST by antiRepublicrat
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To: Last Visible Dog
Nope. You must dissect the Ipod to replace the battery and doing so voids the warranty and is beyond the capability of most users.

Apple iPod warranty - 1 year... battery life - 3 years = WHAT warranty will be voided?

If the battery dies within warranty, or within the Applecare extended warranty, Apple will replace the battery for free. Add to this that Apple has stated that replacing the battery will not void the warranty.

Apple also links to various third party battery replacers from the iPod website. Sure sounds like you don't know what you are talking about and are just spouting what you heard from someone else.

306 posted on 03/09/2005 6:17:08 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Last Visible Dog
You keep repeating that statement even though it is factually incorrect.

But your information IS wildly inaccurate. You've stated the iPod battery is hardwired, that it can't be replaced by the user, that it costs $200 to have it replaced, you even pointed out that replacing the battery at home voids the warranty (so what?). You've even said that the iPod doesn't support WMA (false)--quite a difference from saying the iPod won't play WMA (true).

You AppleHeads sure do like personal insults.

Who's the Applehead? Me? I don't own any Apple hardware OR software....nor have I ever. Nor do I plan to buy any.

307 posted on 03/09/2005 6:17:28 PM PST by Petronski (This is the Serengeti, heart of the Dark Continent, where Bar Codes roam free...)
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To: Bush2000
But that doesn't diminish the fact that Linux boxes are simply more difficult and time-consuming to administer.

ummm what?

Anybody with half a clue knows this to be a fact.

Anyone with half a clue knows you need to define the environment and use before you can even say which will be better or worse..

308 posted on 03/09/2005 6:24:42 PM PST by N3WBI3
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To: Last Visible Dog; antiRepublicrat; CheneyChick; HAL9000
More MacMythology. Apple DID NOT license the GUI - you could not more wrong. Xerox was an investor in Apple so they let them see what they were working on - Apple stole the ideas and latter tried to claim the GUI was their own copyrighted idea.

More Microsoft mythology, you mean. Here is just ONE of many investigations into the Apple - Xerox myth...

----------------------------

Microsoft, Apple and Xerox
The History of the Graphical User Interface

By:David K. Every
©Copyright 1999


There is an ongoing myth that Microsoft is justified in ripping off the Macs User Interface, because Apple had ripped off the MacUI from Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center). Many go on to further say that Apple took the UI from the ALTO or STAR. Of course the people that say this have never used a Mac and an Alto or a Star, or they would know how silly these claims are.

I want to point out that philosophically and morally, theft by one does NOT justify the theft of another. If Apple did steal their UI from Xerox (which they did not), that would not forgive Microsoft of the same crime -- that would only make Apple guilty of a crime as well. So using this as a rationalization for Microsofts theft from Apple is void of any merit.

Apple and Xerox

Apple did not "rip-off" the Macs UI from Xerox. Apple had hired some people from Xerox (like Jef Raskin, Bruce Horn) who believed in concepts of a Graphical User Interface. These concepts are pretty broad -- like making a computer easier to use by using graphics (icons), using menus, windows and making a consistent interface to do things. The work on these concepts predates Xerox PARC -- in fact it was many of these peoples individual work on those concepts that got them hired at PARC. So Xerox (PARC) brought them together to refine them.

Apple's work on GUI's predates Steve Jobs visit to Palo Alto Research Center. Apple had already had the same broad goals of offering an easier to use computer, and possibly using some of the same concept (like menus, icons, and graphics).

Remember the following: Icons were not new, we had been using them for years for international street signs and so on -- they were only new on computers. Menus were not new, text based menus were being used and had been for a while. Graphics weren't new, though how much they were relied upon was new. The concepts of User Interface (Human Factors) was not new, it was just a little newer in applying it to computers.

Jef Raskin had worked at Xerox, and he was tooting the "easier to use" trumpet, with his vision of what that meant. He brought some of those ideas from Xerox, but he had brought some of those ideas TO Xerox as well. Later, he convinced Jobs to visit Xerox PARC, and Jobs became an immediate convert (for ease of use).

What Jobs saw at Xerox was a prototype Smalltalk development system. He did not see either a working ALTO or Star (which was developed much later).

Apple paid

Jobs was so hot on the concepts of UI, and the living Demos he say, that he, later, negotiated a deal with Xerox. He gave Xerox a large sum of stock in Apple (worth Millions) if he could come back, and bring some programmers -- to inspire them more on the concepts of GUI. This was like a one-day tour. This was agreed to by Xerox, and so by no stretch of the imagination could this be called "ripping-off".

PARC was a research center -- meant to inspire development. But they did not really develop products (in the commercial sense), they developed ideas. Saying that Apple learning some of the base concepts and then applying them was "ripping-off" is like saying that Air-Bags are ripping off Newton -- because Air Bags work because they adhere to some of the laws of physics first expressed by Sir Isaac. A silly silly argument. Knowledge builds on knowledge. Xerox didn't see Apple as competition, that is why they let them in -- but they charged Apple, since Xerox believed that their research had value.

Apple was creating a product, and so they hired some of the same researchers from Xerox, to be brought to Apple to work on the Mac and Lisa projects. Those researches state quite clearly that the goals and implementation were quite different between Xerox and Apple. The following is an exchange between two of those researchers, and should give you an idea of how much the Mac contributed to the concepts of UI -

The letters do seem to agree that the Macs UI was created at Apple, by Apple and for Apple. And that little if any Xerox work was taken, and the Mac was in a completely different universe. Some broad concepts were in common, but that is about it. Apple furthered those concepts, developed their own, and had totally different implementations.

The differences in UI between the Xerox UI and Apples' Mac were startlingly different. Years ago I saw a demo of a Alto. From my memory (which may not be flawless), it had a 3 button mouse (which you operated with your right hand), and a chording keyboard (for the left hand). There were overlapping windows, but there was no direct manipulation of those windows. To move the window you selected an option, from the one Menu that you had for each window, and you entered the new size or location of the window into a dialog (using numerical coordinates).There were icons, but icons were not associated with files -- they were more actions (buttons). They were using icons as verbs (do this, or do that) -- Apple made them into nouns, objects (that each represented data) that you manipulated. There wasn't that much direct manipulation, and most of the usage of the multiple windows was so that you could have multiple character terminals (like DOS) open at the same time. Contrast this with a Mac and you see that Apple went way way beyond what they saw.

Xerox extended their developments over time as well, but this is not ripping off. After Apple was far along into the Lisa and Mac project, Xerox had the Star. The Star used many more Mac-like concepts. But many were parallel developed, and some was cross over -- but both machines were developed at the same time but for different goals. I also beleive the Mac is easier to use and has the better interface.

Contrasts

Jobs kept beating on the Mac people that "Real Artists Ship!" - and that they were making a product. That is not anything like the research atmosphere at Xerox.

The Mac was 128k based personal computer, based on a Motorola 68000 processor - the MacOS was designed around Pascal with lots of assembly language for size/speed.

The Xerox machines were anything but personal computers -- they did not use microprocessors (closer to mini-computers), they had no real resource constraints as the Mac did, they ran slower (in real use), were far less elegant, were very immature (yet had some brilliant concepts) and were not really products -- they were research tools. The Xerox Machines were built around SmallTalk (a very resource wasteful language, for the time, but dynamic and powerful).

The two machine use completely different code and architectures -- which requires completely different software designs. The Mac and the Alto are about as related as a Motorcycle and a Semi-truck -- sure they both have wheels, both are transportation, and both run on roads -- after that it gets pretty divergent.

Note: There is not a single line of code that Apple got from Xerox, nor could have since the languages and designs of the system were so radically different.

Apple and Microsoft

Now what happened with Microsoft?

Well it starts out that Microsoft was one of the first Application Developers for the Mac. Apple (Jobs) knew that the Mac needed Software to be commercially viable, and Jobs learned that Microsoft was trying to break in to the Application market (1).

(1) Few remember that MS made languages. Then later stole OS's (DOS). And it wasn't until the Mac that they started making Applications. The Mac was Microsoft's chance to break into the lucrative Application markets. (Microsoft had made a few feeble attempts before the Mac, but it was the Mac that made them successful in the application area. They knew that a new computer meant new opportunities.

Jobs showed Microsoft the early Mac prototypes. Gates liked the ideas and agreed to write Mac applications.

Gates later threatened to pull their apps at the last minute before release unless Jobs agreed to -

A) Apple had to license some of the MacUI for MS-Applications on the PC. This Application suite later grew into Windows 1.0 and Office. Remember, Windows started off as an Application Suite, not an OS-Shell (2).
(2) Because Apple had licensed some concepts to Microsoft (under coercion), it weakened their case later against MS when MS started more blatantly ripping off the Mac. Contrary to popular myth that Apple lost their lawsuit against MS because it wasn't a rip-off, the real reason was that they had been to vague in their licensing of some technologies, and the benefit of the doubt was given MS.

B) Apple had to drop their MacBasic project which was completed and better than MS Basic. MacBasic had many concepts that MS ripped off to create VisualBasic. What few ideas for VB that MS didn't rip off from MacBasic they got from HyperCard -- which Bill Atkinson wrote because the Mac didn't have a good simple programming environment, because MS had dropped their basic for the Mac and had forced MacBasic to canceled as well.

Later MS decided that the GUI was just too cool not to use. So they started on an Application Suite that would use the Macs concepts of Windows, a Mouse, and direct manipulation to achieve its ends. This became Windows 1.0, and evolved into the Windows we know and hate today. The lead programmer for the Windows project was the same guy who had been a lead programmer for writing the Mac Application projects.

This sequence of events (Microsoft "borrowing" the Mac interface) is not the same as taking rough concepts and adding to them to create your own system -- this is much more intimate than that. Microsoft took their best Mac Programmer, and had him making almost every design decision for early windows. He was told, by Bill Gates, to make a PC look and work, "JUST like a Mac" -- this is a direct quote from Gates! Contrast that sequence of events, to Apple and Xerox sequence of events, and you get an idea for the difference in philosophy and implementation. Microsoft stole, Apple expanded.

This similarity was (of Windows to MacOS) is not just in design, there are whole toolboxes/API that are almost identical (in interface). Microsoft stole data structures and many routines, and the names and concepts for many things are the same as well. If it wasn't for the fact that they had to hack their stuff on top of DOS, they likely would have just stolen all the same code (and they did get sued for that later as well). If you look at many of the older Windows routines you see names and structures that are identical to the Mac. But MS is smart enough to avoid (or win) lawsuits -- they changed one name out of 10, or re-ordered a few things, all so they could say it wasn't identical. MS also had to make some design changes to get it to run on a PC. But as far as real design work for Windows, there was none -- the Mac was a living design document.

At first, MS only ripped off the design and implementation, but stayed away from Apple's look and feel. They knew that Apple would only tollerate so much theft. Later MS crossed this line as well, and Apple sued. It was when they started to steal the desktop metaphor (folders, trashcan, etc.) that Apple had enough. No matter what the legal decisions are, ethically Microsoft ripped off the Mac.

Later (post 1995) Microsoft has started to put some money into R&D, and they may try to innovate. Up to this point, they did not innovate -- they may rework others ideas, or add features to, but that's not "true" innovation.

Conclusions

Apple did not rip-off the Alto (Xerox-Parc) -- how could they? Apple was a product oriented company that produced a computer on their own. That computer had a few similarities in concept (user interface) with stuff Xerox was doing, but almost NOTHING in common design or implementation. Apple's metaphors went way way beyond what Xerox was doing (though there are other areas where Xerox was beyond Apple). They were trying to achieve different goals -- and from different points of view. Apple was creating the ultimate personal computer. Xerox was doing research tools, and later tried to make a big client-server type document distribution systems. These are about as similar as a motorcyle and a commuter Bus.

Microsoft on the other hand did rip-off Apple. The concept of making a computer easy to use is way to broad to protect, and Apple didn't complain about that. Windows, icons and menus are not ripping Apple off either -- these are broad concepts. Microsoft got sued because they stole design, implementation and finally metaphors (look and feel). They stole the way you manipulate things on the computer -- as well as almost everything underneath. I sometimes swear that if Microsoft had an original thought the company would immediately implode in suprise. Almost Everything good in Windows can be traced directly to the Mac (which the Mac had years before) -- and almost everything bad in Windows can be traced directly to where MS tried to do things different than the Mac and proved they don't know what they hell they are doing.

309 posted on 03/09/2005 6:45:14 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: antiRepublicrat
Reread the article, fanboy. From your source: Like I said, where do you get your dope?
310 posted on 03/09/2005 6:48:59 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: antiRepublicrat
You have the wrong people. The retail people don't stock for 2% of the market. If you don't see it on the shelves, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And therein lies the problem for Apple: Normal people like to go to real stores and buy real products. Software availability for the Mac is crap.

BTW, I also can't find Photoshop on the shelves at Circuit City or Office Depot, yet it's the premiere photo editing software on the planet.

I can. WTF do you shop -- the 'hood?
311 posted on 03/09/2005 6:51:59 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: LexBaird
Why? Trying to conceal the Windows logo you have branded there?

Because I don't want to be a member of the Glee Club, packer.
312 posted on 03/09/2005 6:53:24 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Last Visible Dog
Xerox sued Apple

Whow... whoop-de-doo. So they did... and lost.

"Judge Vaughn R. Walker of the Federal District Court in San Francisco threw out five of the six counts in Xerox's lawsuit (against Apple) . . . . The one count the judge did not throw out was Xerox 's request for a declaration that it is the sole owner of the Star technology. But he said that to bring suit on that count, Xerox would have to show it had a reasonable fear that Apple would try to take away Xerox's copyrights. He gave Xerox 30 days to come up with the evidence and a list of witnesses."

They didn't... and that count was dismissed as unpursued.

Incidentally, at the time of the lawsuit, the Star (Dandylion or D'lion) was already in the morgue of dead computers, having been introduced in 1981 as a "workstation" on a office network and selling a little over 25,000 units.

313 posted on 03/09/2005 6:55:38 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: antiRepublicrat
I doubt it if they're difficult for you to administer.

I didn't say "difficult". I said "more difficult". Not that hard to understand, for those who aren't logically impaired.
314 posted on 03/09/2005 6:55:47 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Last Visible Dog
WRONG. That was the bios, not the hardware

And exactly WHERE did that BIOS reside? On a PROM (Programmable Read Only Memory) chip on the mother board. Compaq got around the copyright strictures by "reverse engineering" the instructions that existed on that PROM chip. That PROM chip was, TA DA... hardware. They reverse engineered the ONLY proprietary thing in the IBM-PC.

The courts ruled that was legal so long as no part of the code was identical.

315 posted on 03/09/2005 7:02:23 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Petronski
Since you've started off acting like an impudent ass, what makes you think we're going to converse?

LMFAO! I know this will come as a shock but ... we are conversing. Right now. The horror...
316 posted on 03/09/2005 7:02:51 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: antiRepublicrat
But if being crap under the hood mattered, then Windows would have fallen to OS/2.

Such bitterness. If it helps you sleep at night, believe it. Cling to it. Tell your kids about how you coulda-beena-contenda-if-it-wadn't-fuh-dat-damned-Beeel-Gatessss...
317 posted on 03/09/2005 7:04:56 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: N3WBI3
Anyone with half a clue knows you need to define the environment and use before you can even say which will be better or worse..

We're talking in general terms. And I know how the game works: Now you want to nitpick it away by scoping it to scenarios of your own choosing... Uh uh. Ain't goin' there. It's a complete time-sink waste of time.
318 posted on 03/09/2005 7:06:33 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Swordmaker
Microsoft on the other hand did rip-off Apple

The court disagreed and dismissed Apple's suit. End of story.
319 posted on 03/09/2005 7:09:46 PM PST by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000

Umm you make a blanket statement that its harder to administer. I say that it depends on what you use it for. how is that nitpicking?


320 posted on 03/09/2005 7:13:02 PM PST by N3WBI3
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