Posted on 03/04/2005 2:14:06 PM PST by Selkie
By WAYNE PARRY The Associated Press
JERSEY CITY, N.J. - The upstairs neighbor of an Egyptian Christian family found slain in their home in January was charged Friday, along with another man, in the murders.
Edward McDonald, 25, who rented a second-floor apartment above Hossam Armanious and his family, pleaded not guilty to four counts of felony murder. Hamilton Sanchez, 30, faces the same charges and also pleaded not guilty.
Sanchez during a court hearing began crying as he stood before a judge, his hands cuffed behind his back.
"I didn't kill nobody. I didn't kill nobody, man. I didn't kill nobody, people," Sanchez said, as he was led from the courtroom. McDonald stared at the floor during the hearing.
Both men, who were on parole for different drug offenses, were ordered held on $10 million cash bail.
Authorities said Armanious, 47; his wife, Amal Garas, 37, and their children - Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8 - were slain three days before their bodies were found Jan. 14.
(Excerpt) Read more at phillyburbs.com ...
RS just wants to play Devil's Advocate until it kills him.
No matter how eloquently you present the facts he'll misconstrue them.
You're right on the target there. To some it comes naturally, others train for years...clerics, lawyers, psychologists and an odd imam or two...
Thanks for making me think, and when I think I can't write. I'm making a statement by remaining silent. But you did almost make me cry.
...And what might the wages be for playing advocate to the very devil? (rhetorical question)
An old saying comes to mind here: Those who stand for nothing, may fall for anything.
Interesting side note - the word 'attorney' comes from an older word, "attorn" - meaning to wring, to turn, to twist...
A.A.C.
"And what might the wages be...?
Why did I suddenly think of Faust?
Look at the dialogue on this thread with Texas Cowboy (from 250 through 280, about 10 posts).
It is like arguing with a child at times, and you will never get anywhere.
RS simply wants attention, and I will not give it, none of you should, either.
Note that they didn't say "They were Catholics, not Muslims." I'm not a linguist, so I can't give you the proper terminology, but I do know enough about language to know that definitions can have exclusive and inclusive meanings. It seems to me that the statement is worded (and I know you paraphrased it, so I am just going by that) such that the criminals are placed into another grouping--but that doesn't mean the grouping excludes Muslims. That is, if some Euroweenie started shooting his mouth off about "Stupid Yankees" when describing some non-Northern folks from this country....I know many folks who might reply, "they weren't Yankees--they were Americans." Does that mean that Northerners are not Americans? No. It means that the grouping previously provided was false--and is replaced by one that is true.
How often was Mr. Armanious described as an 'Egyptian Christian'? Is there outcry at that? If this is not self-imposed isolationism, where are the people speaking up? Personally, I think that the finger-pointing at non-violent Muslims, and the further fracturing of our country by these groupings, are badly damaging. If Muslims were purely self-isolationists, they'd stand out like the other groups not assimilating, but when they are segregated by others, it's hard to pin it on them.
[...]I hear so few speak up as individuals[...]
How many cases will have to pop up where we hear people "crying 'Muslim'" before we hear anti-Muslim individuals speaking out against such knee-jerking?
I find the gloating about the possible unexpected turn in the case disturbng. Four innocent people, two of them children, are still dead; and the fear and terror of their last hours still haunts me no matter who did the deed.
Yes, this is horrifying. I wonder...if the news had been presented without the method of death, or the religion of the victims, etc... would we have seen posts saying, "See what drugs do? These guys got caught large amounts of drugs last time, and they owe a lot of money, and look how nasty they are when they kill!" like has been said about many drug killings--which are now being described as near sanitary affairs in the implication that this couldn't have possibly been anything but "those eevul Muzzies"...
I think jan in Colorado hit it right when she said there are lots of facts out there that are withheld by police for them to do their jobs. People jumped all over law enforcement, seeming more interested in hearing anti-Muslim information released than caring if they caught the true perps. It's still very possible that there's more to this case, but the point is that knee-jerk accusations that were made are not mere "speculation" that is was Muslims who committed the crime--or that all Muslims would support it.
"It is a chosen lifestyle and is detrimental to them and to their non-islamic neighbors as it breeds mistrust and lack of cultural understanding."
It only breeds mistrust among the uneducated - the Amish don't seem to have any problems, there are chinatowns in most major cities, and New York probably most of all has major ethnic neighborhoods.
It's a natural tendancy in cities for people of the same background to cluster, I'll bet Jersey City has a "Copt community". ( in an attempt to bring things on-topic)
If your attempt at "cultural understanding" leads you to the conclusion that they are tools of satan bent on your destruction it's hard to find common ground.
... and the muslims knowledge that there are many out there that have jumped to that conclusion leads to further clustering.
"Yes, you are all so right. RS simply wants to be "Correct" at all times, and will eavde and avoid direct answers to protect his (her?) "Secret Identity" from being discovered."
Close... I AM correct most of the time, but you're right in a sense... "who" I am is on no consequence to the arguements I present, those questions are allways off-topic, and are normally brought up when someone can no longer address the subject.
... and since they have decided to pry, I think I'm free to play with them in an attempt to get them to admit they are simply fishing for some way to attack ME rather then my arguement.
Hey - why not start a thread speculating about me in blogs ? I'll even make guest apperances ! It might get these threads back on topic.
"I think jan in Colorado hit it right when she said there are lots of facts out there that are withheld by police for them to do their jobs. People jumped all over law enforcement, seeming more interested in hearing anti-Muslim information released than caring if they caught the true perps. It's still very possible that there's more to this case, but the point is that knee-jerk accusations that were made are not mere "speculation" that is was Muslims who committed the crime--or that all Muslims would support it."
Good points by you and Jan...
It would seem that at least some devout Christians have no problems with God and country being on an equal footing.
And I know that Jews don't have that problem, Christians and Jews worship the same God.
Muslims id as Muslims before all else, and are loyal to islam above all else, including their nationality.
Excedrin doesn't do it for me. As a migraine sufferer, my doctor prescribed a percocet. I don't know what's worse--the headache, or the fuzziness from the treatment.
Sorry to go off-topic, the word headache is a trigger for me. And I hope that doesn't become literal.
Please, have at it again.
"There was NO evidence, simply unsupported, and in many cases anonymous, statements by those who had an obvious bias in the case.
In many threads it appeared that a lynch-mob mentality had taken over, using terrorist style posters and slogans to excite the masses while abandoning reason"
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Not true. Armanious and his family were threatened with death in an internet chat room called Pal-Talk. The poster said they would be killed like chickens.
Face it, that kind of hateful spew is the lynch mob mentality. I would call threatening to kill someone's family like chickens because you don't like what they say about your religion to be abandoning reason.
You've got the right adjectives, but they apply equally to the islamic creeps who threatened Armanious. Without the hate in the form of death threats from someone (or more than one) in the islamic community for this family there would have been no reason to think it was a hate crime.
That's where it started. Own it.
WOW--what an incredible indictment of this insane cult. That a three year old brat had enough hate at that age to do this to a complete stranger--imagine what a filth of man he will become.
And the women--I am glad you told them off, Selkie. They won't change, but I bet you got a lot off of your chest that day!
Yes, its becoming obvious. He ignores the fact that there were threats from the islamic web site, and zeroes in on irrelevancies. I enjoy a good civilized debate but debating RS is more like a "debate" on the Yahoo message board. You just end up going nowhere and getting a headache.
wrong state. If I lived in Jersey I might be tempted to play dumb/multiculturist
Oh poof. When did you ever hear me call anyone a "tool of satan?" At least get your fellow FReepers straight. Insult me with my words, not someone else's, thank you.
"It only breeds mistrust among the uneducated - the Amish don't seem to have any problems, there are chinatowns in most major cities, and New York probably most of all has major ethnic neighborhoods"
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I am sure there are plenty of uneducated people who have no problem trusting the islamic communities; as there are educated people who do harbor distrust of these communities. But enough of that; I am aware that this statement of yours was an attempt to insinuate I am uneducated; and I am not biting, sorry.
Of course there are other ethnic groups who have a tendency to cluster--its just that generally they don't have a history of harboring terrorists in their mists or dancing and cheering when one or 19 of their ethnic group commits mass murder of Americans. That kind of behavior serves to engender mistrust.
"... and the muslims knowledge that there are many out there that have jumped to that conclusion leads to further clustering. "
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Oh, so that's why islamic communities are insular and don't assimilate. It doesn't have anything to do with the belief that mixing with infidels is anti-islam, or anything like that. It's because they heard some FReepers say they are "tools of satan".
Right.
"Not true. Armanious and his family were threatened with death in an internet chat room called Pal-Talk. The poster said they would be killed like chickens."
Try to take anonymous chat-room statements to court as "evidence" ...
"Face it, that kind of hateful spew is the lynch mob mentality. I would call threatening to kill someone's family like chickens because you don't like what they say about your religion to be abandoning reason."
Yep, I totally agree, and would fight it there also, even more then I do here.
"You've got the right adjectives, but they apply equally to the islamic creeps who threatened Armanious."
EXACTLY - It dosen't belong there or here...
We are in absolute, total agreement on this point.
"When did you ever hear me call anyone a "tool of satan?" At least get your fellow FReepers straight."
I'm sorry if you thought I was aiming that one at you personally, so am I correct in assuming that you do NOT consider Islam as a "tool of satan" ... just to be correct here ?
"its just that generally they don't have a history of harboring terrorists in their mists or dancing and cheering when one or 19 of their ethnic group commits mass murder of Americans."
Where did this happen in the US ? ( Just trying to stay on topic here... )
"Oh, so that's why islamic communities are insular and don't assimilate."
Now who's being foolish - I suppose you think that "assimilation" means going to Christian churches, and allowing their kids to wear their pants hanging off their butts ?
Just what would they have to do to reach your level of assimilation ?
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