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China Arms Embargo Not What It Seems (It is even worse)
Tuscalooscan News ^ | February 24, 2005 | By JOHN LEICESTER

Posted on 02/24/2005 7:24:23 PM PST by Paul_Denton

Edited on 02/24/2005 7:28:34 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]

Europe has angered the United States with talk of canceling its arms embargo against China - but governments and companies on the continent have for years delivered weapons and other equipment to Beijing and its rapidly modernizing People's Liberation Army.

In Germany, a subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler AG says it is supplying diesel engines for Chinese submarines.

And there's been a surge in European export licenses to China for goods - about $550 million in 2003 alone - that are designed for war or could have military and civilian applications, a gauge of Europe's growing willingness to profit from China's military progress.

If Europe's nearly 16-year-old embargo is lifted, the United States fears that cutting-edge technology, weapons and materiel from the continent's large military industry could hone the effectiveness of Russian armaments that China has been buying massively, increasing its potential to threaten U.S.-aligned Taiwan and Japan.

Exactly what the Chinese PLA, the world's largest army by troop numbers, may be getting from Europe is difficult to determine, because sales are shrouded by government bureaucracy, secretiveness and guidelines with loopholes, experts in Europe and the United States say.

Rep. Tom Lantos, senior Democrat on the House International Relations Committee, said U.S. lawmakers "will take strong, strong and outraged retaliatory action" if the embargo is lifted.

The U.S. Congress is united against "this degree of arrogant, in-your-face, sale to a communist dictatorship of advanced military equipment," Lantos said in a telephone interview.

"People who advocate it in Europe should go down to the American military cemeteries and remind themselves of the lives we sacrificed to liberate Europe," he said.

Europe's "embargo on trade in arms with China" was simply one line in a declaration by European leaders in June 1989 who condemned Chinese authorities' "brutal repression" of democracy demonstrations centered on Beijing's Tiananmen Square. Europe never defined what exactly should not be sold to the Chinese and different governments have interpreted the embargo more loosely than others, experts say.

France, for instance, completed deliveries of helicopters, and radars and missiles for Chinese destroyers, that were ordered before the embargo, and took an order in 1992 for light helicopters that were delivered between 1995-2002, according to the arms transfer database of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute in Sweden.

The institute, which is mainly financed by the Swedish government, says Italy also completed deliveries of missiles for combat aircraft in 1991 and radars for Chinese destroyers in 2001.

European Union figures for 2003, the latest available, show France, Italy, Britain, the Czech Republic and Germany issued licenses to China worth about $550 million at today's rates for military list exports, which can include weapons and other equipment with possible military applications. That's up from about $277 million in 2002 and nearly $72 million in 2001.

Although licenses don't always translate into sales and there's scant information on what actually gets delivered, the increase suggests European governments are "becoming happier and happier to authorize exports to China," said Roy Isbister of the London-based arms control lobbying group Saferworld.

Britain has said that under the embargo it will not sell machine guns, bombs or other such lethal weapons to China or military aircraft, fighting ships and armored fighting vehicles.

"But they will sell components for weapons systems," Isbister said in a phone interview. "In theory, you could sell all the components of a combat aircraft and a spanner and stay within (Britain's) interpretation of the embargo."

In Germany, MTU Friedrichshafen's contract from China for submarine engines did not require an export license, said Daniel Reinhardt, a spokesman for the company that's 88 percent owned by DaimlerChrysler. Reinhardt wouldn't say how many engines were involved or say if they have been delivered. The company announced the "large-scale" contract in Sept. 2000.

The U.S. Defense Department indicated in a report to Congress that MTU engines have gone into a new class of Chinese submarine that also are probably fitted with French-designed sonars and which "could play a significant role" in countering U.S. naval forces in the Pacific.

A French official said that while France led Europe in issuing about $225 million worth of military export licenses for China in 2003, only about one in 10 actually result in a delivery.

Items approved in 2003 were non-lethal and included spare parts for helicopters, radars for air traffic control and equipment to help fire and rescue services contain chemical contamination at industrial sites, said the official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

European Union officials insist that exports to China are closely watched under a nonbinding code of conduct meant to guide EU countries' arms sales.

Adopted in 1998, the code is being strengthened under a review that started last year, EU officials say. It hasn't been made public, but officials say the updated code should help ensure that lifting the embargo doesn't produce a flood of destabilizing military exports to China.

European governments also plan to share more information about sales to countries emerging from embargoes and to dispatch a delegation to the United States and Japan to allay concerns about lifting the embargo on China, said an official at EU headquarters in Brussels, Belgium.

European leaders said in December that ending the embargo shouldn't result in either a "quantitative" or "qualitative" increase in sales to China.

But resisting the Chinese market has long proved difficult.

China is not comfortable relying on Russia for its weaponry and is "looking to the Europeans for the smart, high-tech stuff," said Adam Ward, an East Asia expert at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London.

Unlike the United States, Europe doesn't have troops in that part of Asia and isn't as attuned as Washington to China's growing military potential, Ward added. Ending the embargo could win favor in Beijing for France and Germany, which are leading the push to lift it, helping their sales of nonmilitary items like civilian planes and high-speed trains.

"Europe as a whole doesn't have a very coherent view of China," said Ward. "But it does have a very clear view of China as an economic opportunity."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: armsembargo; asia; china; eu; japan; taiwan; us
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1 posted on 02/24/2005 7:24:28 PM PST by Paul_Denton
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To: Paul_Denton; InShanghai; HighRoadToChina; maui_hawaii; Free the USA; rightwing2; borghead; ...

I love it when they say China's new leaders should be given a chance.

What new leaders? Hu Jintao?

Please! He has already proven that he is more hardline than anything we have seen in recent years. The same party that crushed democracy demonstrations in Beijing and elsewhere throughout the country is still in power....just ask the people who were shot by soldiers in Sichuan and Henan provinces a couple of months ago for protesting against government abuses and land grabs.

A lot of changes are taking place in China today, but I just don't see it happening at the governmental level.


2 posted on 02/24/2005 7:46:23 PM PST by Dr. Marten
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To: Paul_Denton
"nd there's been a surge in European export licenses to China for goods - about $550 million in 2003 alone "

China has good reason to seek high tech weapons. I mean, China must feel menaced by the New Zealand threat, or perhaps by the mighty Singapore Air Force, or by the elite Mongolian Navy. Jeez, they're just plum surrounded by hostile enemies aren't they. The most populated country on Earth needs high tech weapons for one reason only: to counter America.

If Europe lifts the ban China will need some cold hard cash. Come on everyone, get down to Wal-Mart and buy some junk from China. Hey, a buck is a buck, right? But, at least buying manufactured items from China helps to shut down factories in the US. We loose jobs and manufacturing capability and China gets the hardware to kill Americans should the dictator of the moment decide to try to wipe out Taiwan. I mean, whats not to like?

Churchill said that WWII would have been the easiest war to prevent. Hitler plainly stated what he wanted to do and set out to do it, and the Europeans thought if they'd just play nice he'd rise to the occasion. Up to a point he could have been stopped, but no one had the guts. History repeats itself.
3 posted on 02/24/2005 8:32:29 PM PST by WmDonovan (http://www.geocities.com/thelawndaletimes)
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To: Dr. Marten
Yesterday, in Shanghai, a fellow was spied stealing inside an apartment complex. The police gave chase on foot, and the guy ran into an Elementry School. He took one student hostage and held him at knifepoint for two hours. Finally, the police bum rushed the culprit and overpowered him. No mention as to the fate of the child, however rumor has it that he's in hospital with no major injuries.

Things are changing. Crime is increasing and, as we all know, the migrant workforces have at times protested not being paid on time. Change at the governmental level is bound to happen, the momentum of swing is in favor of more freedom for the masses.

4 posted on 02/24/2005 8:42:01 PM PST by InShanghai (I was born on the crest of a wave, and rocked in the cradle of the deep.)
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To: InShanghai

China is only following in Hussain's footsteps. Offer enough money and the embargo will go away.


5 posted on 02/24/2005 8:52:08 PM PST by pacpam (action=consequence applies in all cases)
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To: pacpam; Dr. Marten; DoughtyOne
And where do they get the money? From investments here in the west, and our thoughtless reliance on cheap Chinese products.


6 posted on 02/24/2005 9:09:49 PM PST by risk
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To: InShanghai
First school kidnap in Shanghai
 

7 posted on 02/24/2005 9:15:32 PM PST by Dr. Marten
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To: InShanghai
That knife cuts both ways. Instability is increasing for sure. The people want a better way of life.

No doubt about it.

At the same time the 'order' that exists weilds lots of power. Instability can (rather will) drive them into drastic measures. It could either be crushing the opposition (which they can't do again, otherwise even more trouble)...which only leaves outward expansion and playing off of revolutionary tactics. Meaning in a nutshell, attacking Taiwan "to re-unify China" and quite possibly attacking Japan also.

They don't stoke that victim nationalist mindset for nothing.

The powers that be will do anything to save their own skin. Even if the people will be far better served by a different government, they still won't go. If they have to fight a war to accomplish that, so be it.

8 posted on 02/24/2005 9:35:40 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: InShanghai

The people can easily be suckered in to fighting someone elses war.


9 posted on 02/24/2005 9:56:41 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: Dr. Marten

This school is right in front of my apartment...


10 posted on 02/24/2005 10:19:58 PM PST by InShanghai (I was born on the crest of a wave, and rocked in the cradle of the deep.)
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To: Paul_Denton

What a bumch of BUTMONKEYS our leaders have turned out to be.

Sure we do hundreds of billions of dollars worth of trade with China, BUT BUT BUT Europe shouldn't.

Let'a talk about what we traded China. Loral Corporation gave China the technology to reduce vibration on sensitive instruments so that China's missiles could become much more reliable, and accurate. During the process Loral also gave China MIRV technology.

Not only are China's ICBMs much more reliable, they're accurate to within 50 feet now, and multiple warheads has made them exponentially more dangerous. Thanks ever so much Loral. Thanks Bill. Thanks Congress.

Did our government do anything about this? What Loral executives were placed in prison? What President who got a $100,000 donation from Loral's CEO, was impeached? Which Presidential staff members went to prison?

Others and myself have been harping about this for around a decade now. All of a sudden our political leaders in Washington have found their vocal cords. Amazingly enough, Bill Clinton and his coven of spies are long gone. They were graced with non-investigations and a "we'll let bygones be bygones" attitude from January 2001 on.

Frankly, I think a lot of public officials and some corporate assholes should find themselves in prison for the rest of their lives, for what our nation has done.

Europe? Sh-t, we've got ten to fifteen years worth of criminality on our own soil to worry about. We can get to Europe's problems, say around 2015 to 2020. That's how long it took for us to relize trading with China was a problem from our own shores.

Europe? LMAO, our leaders are absolutely worthless!


11 posted on 02/24/2005 10:21:08 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: maui_hawaii
Your comments make sense. But those 'powers that be' have saved their own skin by defining a capatalistic market with themselves standing right in the middle of it. I'd think they'd take the money and run, if it came down to that. Otherwise, they'd rather take the money and keep a low profile.

My experience in post 1989 China has proven to me that money has become king for the Chinese and the 'powers that be'.

12 posted on 02/24/2005 10:30:16 PM PST by InShanghai (I was born on the crest of a wave, and rocked in the cradle of the deep.)
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To: DoughtyOne

And Europe's ;leaders are better?


13 posted on 02/24/2005 10:33:42 PM PST by Paul_Denton (The UN is UN-American! Get the UN out of the US and US out of the UN! http://asiasec.blogspot.com/)
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To: DoughtyOne
Guess where Mr. Clinton is NOW...
14 posted on 02/24/2005 10:36:14 PM PST by InShanghai (I was born on the crest of a wave, and rocked in the cradle of the deep.)
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To: Paul_Denton

Paul, which European nation gave nuke and missile tech to China? When you've got that one figured out, please tell us what could be worse. I'd be interested to hear it.


15 posted on 02/24/2005 10:50:17 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: InShanghai

If there was ever a guy who deserved to have his re-entry ticket tossed, this is the one.


16 posted on 02/24/2005 10:51:21 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: Paul_Denton

Hmm, just in time for the Euro-figher, perhaps?


17 posted on 02/24/2005 10:56:00 PM PST by I_dmc
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To: DoughtyOne
Yeah well WE are not at fault for what Clinton or greedy corperates like the Waltons did, so dont try to act like it. What can we as small individuals do when WE have no choice in matters? If it were in my power I would have given Taiwan nuclear weapons long ago. If it were in my power I would have made sure Bill Clinton did not get even into office. If it were in my power Wal Mart would not exist. If it were in my power I would have preemptivly attacked China long ago. But I and millions of other Americans are nothing more than just people. I avoid anything made in China as much as possible but that is about all I can do personally.

Clinton sold us out because of he wanted camapaign contributions from the Chinese. Old Europe is selling us out because pure hatrid for us. Leftists and old europe are equally bad and equally our enemy.

18 posted on 02/24/2005 10:56:15 PM PST by Paul_Denton (The UN is UN-American! Get the UN out of the US and US out of the UN! http://asiasec.blogspot.com/)
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To: DoughtyOne

YOur attempts to make the europeans look good are falling on deaf ears. BOTH CLINTON AND EUROPE ARE WRONG IN THIS. DONT YOU GET IT?


19 posted on 02/24/2005 10:57:07 PM PST by Paul_Denton (The UN is UN-American! Get the UN out of the US and US out of the UN! http://asiasec.blogspot.com/)
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To: InShanghai
those 'powers that be' have saved their own skin by defining a capatalistic market with themselves standing right in the middle of it.

Oh the truth of that statement. I would like to emphasize "right in the middle of it"...as the main participant. It just adds to the measure of power...

I don't disagree with your last post...not at all.

Its kind of like a friend of mine said..."Once the party got power that was good, but then they realized they still had no money. Powerful but poor...Why not have power and money...?"

Yeah they would rather lay low, but they may well get pushed out of their comfort zone. Now there is both power and money at stake...which just re emphasizes my point that they have even more to lose now than ever...

20 posted on 02/24/2005 10:57:29 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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