Iraq marshes(Biblical Eden) can be partially restored

Financial Times(subscription) ^

[D Edmund Joaquin]

Well no doubt the Jewish people have the ark somewhere, let alone all sorts of other wonderful stuff, and to "tout them" would be folly as they would no doubt be killed for them. If Jesus had not been a descendant of David's, yes, the hue and cry would still be resounding. As it is, some people still disbelieve that a priest can come from the tribe of Judah

Records of the corroboration are found in Matthew 1 and Luke 3. Though being published now for untold years, no Jewish scholars have come forward to debunk them

[orionblamblam]

Nicely done. Very conspiratorial.

[D Edmund Joaquin]

They're right out in the open, have been for a long long time

[orionblamblam]

> They're right out in the open

You just said they'd be killed for releasing this info. And let's face it... they would be. Anyone providing evidence of the *non* divinity of Christ faced the wrath of the early Church. Ask the gnostics... if you can find one.

[D Edmund Joaquin]

I meant the records of His line. If the Jews wanted to dispute they could have long since. Oh, lots of gnostics still around-- they post here a lot

[orionblamblam]

> If the Jews wanted to dispute they could have long since.

What, and get killed?

Consider this: if there was such a dispute in, say, 40 AD... what do you think the chances are that a record woudl remain?

[D Edmund Joaquin]

Why would they get killed? After all, they ( the priests) had all the power -- you forget, for a long time, it ws the christians getting killed. Yes the record would remain. After all, consider what Hillel said, and the record remains.

[orionblamblam]

> Why would they get killed? After all, they ( the priests) had all the power -- you forget, for a long time, it ws the christians getting killed.

And then the Christians turned it around. If there was proof that Christ was a fraud (or at least somethign that put it into doubt), what would the Church do with it?

[D Edmund Joaquin]

God turned it around. As a member of the Church to which you are alluding, all I can tell you is that I have never been discouraged from questioning anything. Put it out in the light and let's examine it, is what I was taught, for after all, the truth loves the light

[Lurking2Long]

Excellent point!

[ohioWfan]

Of course, people also believe in Bigfoot, so...

I see you're still around tossing out silly insults, evading direct questions, revealing your total ignorance, and digging yourself deeper and deeper into a pit because of it.

Smart people give up when they've been beaten..........especially by multiple people on the same subject in the same day.

Be smart. Admit you're wrong.

(And if you ever come up with a date for a documented manuscript of the Gallic Wars, do let me know. Otherwise, I'll assume that you believe Caesar's as real as Bigfoot :).

[ohioWfan]

Since this discussion has included those who argue that Caesar 's works may be forgeries...

So now you are including lies in your argumentation?

No one suggested that Caesar's works were forgeries other than yourself.

You freely admitted to believing that Caesar was an historical figure. I just asked you to document it historically...........which you refused to do.

[ohioWfan]

Cornelius Tacistus, ROMAN historian, was born c. AD 52-54. That's only 20 years after the death of the historic Jesus. In his Annals XV. 44 he refers to "Christus," the founder of Christianity having been put to death by Pontius Pilate.

Lucian of Samosata, a second century anti-Christian satirist of the second century, referred to Christ as "the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world."

Flavius Josephus (born AD 37.....only a few years after the death of Jesus) was a Jewish Pharisee and historian, and in his Antiquities talkes about Jesus as a wise man, doer of wonderful works, condemned to the cross by Pilate, appeared to them alive again on the third day, and verified that he fulfilled the prophesies of the Jewish Scriptures.

Even the most hardened cynics, if they are educated, accept the historic existence of Jesus. He is by far the most credibly documented ancient figure.

The historic proof for the existence of Caesar falls FAR short of the historic proof of the existence of Jesus (it was centuries after Caesar that the first manuscript of the Gallic Wars appeared), yet you accept Caesar glibly, and stubbornly deny Christ.

It might cause one to question as to whether you are even remotely interested in the truth at all........

[ohioWfan]

from decades removed.

Once again showing your absolute ignorance of how ancient documents are tested. Decades means that many people were still alive who could easily expose Josephus as a liar, or any of the other multiple sources of information about Jesus, and His crucifixion. But guess what? No one did.

btw, have you found any sources authenticating authorship of Caesar's Gallic Wars only 'decades removed?' I think not.

And about that 'forgeries' stuff.........that phony accusation that I called the Gallic Wars forgeries (i.e. your baldfaced lie about it)...... it proves my point entirely.

If you accept the Gallic Wars as authentic and written by Caesar, and scoff at me for asking you to document that they are, then your refusal to accept 10 times the documentation on the reality of the historic Jesus, is a towering double standard.

If you can come up with the kind of documentation that has been provided to you about Jesus within CENTURIES of Caesar's life, I'll be surprised.

You have lost on the basis of the historic evidence, orion. You'll have to come up with a different excuse for rejecting Christ, and ridiculing His followers.

[ohioWfan]

Here's something of note for you, orion.........

My Encyclopaedia Brittanica (Macropaedia, Vol. 22, p. 360, Jesus: The Christ and Christology, column 2, paragraph 5) following a listing and explanation of non-Christian sources and references for the historic Jesus, says this......

These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.

Seems like even the Encyclopaedia Brittanica thinks your ability to reason is inadequate.....

[orionblamblam]

If you can come up with the kind of documentation that has been provided to you about Jesus within CENTURIES of Caesar's life, I'll be surprised.

I would too, as I've never heard of any reports granting Julius Ceasar supernatural powers.

In any event, here's historical evidence for Julius Caesar, from *right* *then.*

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#7169 aF/aF Julius Caesar and Mark Antony Dual Portrait Denarius $137
Attribution: Craw 488/2
Date: 43 BC
Obverse: Julius Caesar right, jug behind
Reverse: Mark Antony right
Size: 18.09 mm
Weight: 3.1 grams
Rarity: 7
Description: A well worn denarius but a clear portrait of Julius Caesar

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a postumous portrait of Julius Caesar

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Silver denarius, S 1407, Cr. 480/3, Syd. 1056, RSC 34, near EF, 3.56g, 19.3mm, 180o, Rome mint, Jan - Feb 44 B.C.; obverse CAESAR IMP, Caesar's wreathed head right, lituus and culullus behind head; reverse M•METELLVS, Venus holding Victory and transverse scepter, resting elbow on shield set on base or helmet, G (control mark) in left field

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This coin declares Caesar, Dictator for Life. He did serve as Dictator for the remainder of his life, but his life would end only a few weeks after this issue. For Caesar to put his image on coins and essentially declare himself king was too much for Brutus and his republican allies. This coin (along with other similar types) is sometimes called "the coin that killed Caesar." This coin was minted for Caesar's projected Parthian war. Specimens of this type were often carelessly struck indicating the mint was working under great pressure.
5338. Silver denarius, S 1413, Syd 1072, Craw 480/10, RSC 38, EF, wonderful portrait, 3.81g, 19.7mm, 190o, Rome mint, moneyer P Sepullius Macer, Jan-Feb 44 B.C.; obverse CAESAR DICT PERPETVO, wreathed head of Caesar right; reverse P SEPVLLIVS MACER, Venus standing left holding Victory and scepter, shield at feet right; flat strike areas

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[orionblamblam]

More
JULIUS CAESAR AR silver denarius. Lifetime portrait issue, struck February-March, 44 BC. 3.4g, large 19mm flan. CAESAR IMPER, laureate head right, Lituus and simpulum behind/ M. METTIVS, Venus standing left, holding Victory. Control letter 'G' in lower left field. RCV 1407, valued at $960 in VF. Very interesting banker's mark, perhaps a monogram, on Caesar's neck. Small test cut above Caesar's head.Circular banker's mark in right reverse field. anker's mark on Caesar's neck. Rare! Significant wear, but a clear portrait of this historical giant. 709857.

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JULIUS CAESAR DICTATOR AR silver portrait denarius. CAESAR DICT PERPETUO, Julius' laureate head right / P SEPVLLIVS MACER, Venus standing left with victory and shield. Syd 1072.. Struck January-February 44BC. These portrait issue coins, along with assumption of 'Dictator for Life', (also shown on this coin) are among the major reasons Caesar was assassinated by the Liberators (Brutus, Cassius, and the gang).

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(60) Julius Caesar and Marcus Mettius - AR denarius, 44 B.C., 3.78 g. (inv. 91.106).
Obverse: Laureate head of Julius Caesar r., with long neck; CAESAR IMPER(ATOR): Caesar, imperator.
Reverse: Venus Victrix walking l., holding small Victoria in l. and spear in r., with shield at l. side; monogram in l. field; M METTIVS: Marcus Mettius (mint magistrate).
Provenance: Edward Gans, 1959.
Bibliography: J.P.C. Kent, Roman Coins (London 1978) 17.

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Bust of Caesar, probably based on his death mask.

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Caesar, Museo della Civilta, Rome

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Caesar, c. 60 BCE

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Arrr. Time to go to bed.

[ohioWfan]

Oh.....sheesh...........I knew I shouldn't have been typing that last night.................the issue was proof of his authorship of the Gallic Wars ..........NOT whether he actually existed. (I'm pretty sure you knew that was what I was talking about, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). It would be as stupid to say Caesar didn't exist as it is to say Jesus didn't exist.......and I'm not stupid.

You accept Caesar's authorship, and its truthfulness without question............don't you? But you never came up with a date for the nearest document of it (another hint..........it was almost a millenium after Caesar actually lived).

Now please address the other issues I raised, all the documentation that Jesus was an historic figure (and even the Encyclopaedia Britannica's statement that people who question it can't be taken seriously) and your outright lie on this thread that I said the Gallic Wars were forgeries.

If you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to prove that the historic evidence is wrong (which you cannot do), or admit you're wrong.

If you ignore the documentation presented to you, you'll prove (what most of us think), that you're a phony who isn't interested in the truth, and who has done no serious research to find out what the facts really are, because you're afraid of what you'll find out.

[ohioWfan]

btw, if someone claimed that Caesar DID do miracles, would you deny that he existed in spite of historic evidence to the contrary?

Is that your problem? The miracles? You deny the history because you don't like the miracles?

[orionblamblam]

> It would be as stupid to say Caesar didn't exist as it is to say Jesus didn't exist.

Actually, rather more so. Caesar was known and written about by his contemporaries. Statues and coinage of him have been found all over the Roman world.

Jesus... does not have nearly the recognition in his world or among his contemporaries.