Posted on 02/21/2005 7:04:50 AM PST by Alex Marko
The fabled marshes of Mesopotamia, largely destroyed by Saddam Hussein in one of the worst pieces of ecological vandalism in recent history, can be partially restored, scientists said on Sunday.
The first scientific assessment of the marshes in southern Iraq, al considered by some to have been the Biblical location of the Garden of Eden, was presented to the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Washington.
Saddam's drainage programme - accompanied by the persecution and forced relocation of the Marsh Arabs who had lived there for 5,000 years - reduced the wetlands to 7 per cent of their original 20,000 sq km area. But some of the former marshland is already recovering, following the actions of local people who broke down Saddam's dikes and dams after his regime fell in 2003.
The study by US, Canadian and Iraqi scientists showed a surprising rapid return of plants and wildlife to the areas that have been reflooded by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. "The quality of the river water turns out to be much higher than many people had expected," said Curtis Richardson of Duke University in North Carolina, the study leader.
"Immediately after [the overthrow of Saddam] we saw just a dozen birds in the marshes," Prof Richardson said. "A year later, there were hundreds and now they are talking about many thousands."
The marshes were once an important resting point for waterfowl migrating between Siberia and Africa. The local otter species, which survived in the small area of the marshes along the Iranian border that were not drained, is also making a come-back.
Barry Warner, a botanist at the University of Waterloo in Canada, said: "There are encouraging signs that a vibrant and healthy plant community will re-establish itself in the newly wetted areas."
Because the marshes were drained only recently - mainly during the 1990s as Saddam took revenge on the Shia Marsh Arabs for their failed insurrection after the first Gulf War - many desiccated areas retain a large and viable seedbed.
But the scientists said a sustained international effort would be needed to support Iraqis' efforts to turn the current ad-hoc flooding into a sustainable long-term revival. Peter Reiss, director of the US Agency for International Development's marshland restoration project, said: "Within Iraq the destruction of the marshes has become a symbol of the oppression by Saddam's regime."
Most Iraqis support restoration, but there is no consensus about how much of the marshes to restore permanently given the competing demands for scarce water. Prof Richardson said 30 per cent would be a reasonable target.
Plans by Turkey and Iran to take more water from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers also pose a long-term threat to marshland restoration.
Even the Marsh Arabs have somewhat ambivalent attitudes about restoration of the wetlands. Their population, estimated at 350,000 in 1950, is now little more than 100,000, none of whom are living in their original homes, Mr Reiss said. Their traditional way of life, documented by Wilfred Thesiger, Gavin Maxwell and other authors, was based on fishing, water buffalo herding and reed cutting. This is virtually extinct today and most of the remaining Marsh Arabs are impoverished sedentary farmers. But according to Mr Reiss, many of them feel it will be impossible to recreate their way of life and would prefer outside investment in conventional agriculture.
> Ah! what if it was mostly metaphor..
Or almost entirely metaphor. Or entirely metaphor. Too many Christians hereabouts base their faith, and their views of the faith of other Christians, on the belief that what is obviously metaphor was, in fact, a literal account.
Nonsense. There is no reason for Jewish historians to "make up" Christ. Even His enemies acknowledge Him. It is rumored that the Talmud speaks ill of Him today. Tacitus mentioned Him, Suetonius mentioned Him, and Phlegon, all mentioned Him, but no doubt, they are all liars
What is a christian.?.
Some christians are not christains as some muslims are not muslims at all.. Putting kittens in an oven don't make them muffins.. and a donkey dressed as a horse don't make it so even if the hee-haw is supressed..
Everyone is "preaching something".. You preach far more loudly by what you DO than by what you say.. What you DO is what you are preaching.. If what you do and say differ, the first one fooled is yourself..
Oh, wait, do let me address this:
Nope. Put two critters together. If one does stuff that leads it to survive, and the other does stuff that doesn't lead it to survive, then a "survival instinct" can be implied
Just something to think about, you don't have to answer: Which came first, the "primordial ooze that was struck by lightning", or the instinct for survival?
'Bye now.
and one last thing --- His birth was recorded in the Jewish genealogies, and we know this, for when He made his claim to be descended from David, the Jews, who were sticklers for family records, did not dispute it, and if He had not been born, they would have had proof of it, and still would
> There is no reason for Jewish historians to "make up" Christ.
Sigh. Nobody is saying that "Jewish historians" made up Christ. What I'm saying is that a Jewish historian writing two decades after Christ is supposed to have died is hardly likely to be able to "prove" that Christ did live. What Josephus siad, in effect, was, "There are a lot of Christians, and they believe X, Y, Z." Well, I can also write "There are a lot of Hare Krishnas, and they believe X, Y and Z," but that does not mean that X,Y, and Z are in fact true.
> Tacitus mentioned Him, Suetonius mentioned Him, and Phlegon, all mentioned Him, but no doubt, they are all liars
How many historians mentioned Mohammad?
I have read the complete works of Josephus, and I assure you, that is not "what he said". You don't seem to have read anything historical-- why dont you go read some History and then get back to us
> when He made his claim to be descended from David, the Jews, who were sticklers for family records, did not dispute it
And who would have recorded that dispute if they had made it?
You are argueing that an absence of evidence is evidence for existence. In the very early years, people would have no more spent their efforts denying CHrist than skeptics of the late 1990's spent debunking the Heaven's Gaters. Simply wasn't worth the effort.
Your ignorance of the Jewish culture is also extensive. Josephus can be purchased at amazon
> I have read the complete works of Josephus, and I assure you, that is not "what he said".
What more did he have to say about Christ than the following?
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named for him, are not extinct at this day."
I've not found more. In all his recorded works that I'm aware of, this short paragraph is about it. Not a ringing endorsement.
And then there's the debate among scholars over whether that paragraph is authentic, or jsut tacked in later by Christian scribes. Since this discussion has included those who argue that Caesar 's works may be forgeries... then so too must Josephus's works be considered possible forgeries.
> Which came first, the "primordial ooze that was struck by lightning", or the instinct for survival?
The former. Without life, there is no instinct. Instinct does not exist until there is some sort of operating system.
> Your ignorance of the Jewish culture is also extensive
Maybe so. But that doesn't address my arguement.
If paper is expensive, publication is prohibitive, and the Empire is laoded with flash-in-the-pan cults, many based on the same sort of Messiah... how much effort would you devote to debunking every single one individually? For frap's sake, how many other cults were debunked like you think Christianity would have been had it been wrong?
it addresses the argument, and quite well. Jews consider their genealogy to be of the utmost importance, and records were, and are, kept. When Jesus made his claim, it would have been an easy thing for them to corroborate. It was common for them to be able to trace their lines back to Adam. Read the Books of Chronicles if you don't believe me.
Only somewhat. I was going off of memory. Yes, he's a bit more blunt... "he was Christ." But how did he know that? Writing from Rome, from decades removed.
It appears that Josephus himself was awed by it. Perhaps flesh and blood did not reveal it (Matthew 16:17)
> records were, and are, kept
I see. Are there extant records from 4 BC to, say, 35 AD? You'd think people would tout them.
> When Jesus made his claim, it would have been an easy thing for them to corroborate.
Would it, now? Assume, for the sake of arguement, the Jesus eithjer did not exist, or did not exist as he is now thought to have. When would his claim of geneology thus have been made public?
And also: assume for the sake of arguement that Jesus did make such a claim at that time. Further assume that corroboration or denial was done. Where are those records of that corroboration? What are the chances that a denial would now exist? Look what happened to early Christian heretics. They were nearly erased from history. If there was a report of an official denouncement... what would have happened to it?
> It appears that Josephus himself was awed by it
Awed enough to write *one* paragraph? Well, whoop-de-doo.
there have been millions of Christians who wrote no paragraph, so one Jewish historian, yes, awesome!
> so one Jewish historian, yes, awesome!
Wait. Was he Jewish? Or was he Christian?
It's an important distinction. Can you tell the class why?
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