Posted on 02/13/2005 8:46:21 AM PST by Scenic Sounds
"Prov.22:6
[6] Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
It is the responsibility of the parent to raise their child in the Christian faith with lots of firmness and love."
Excellent. I think some parents focus on firmness and don't give enough love. Love could mean respect for independence and a willingness to share beleifs but allow the child to feel he has made his own decision. If the parents don't set a good example, the child will say "where has religion gotten mom and dad?"
Hi Sassy. I wish I had the details of your experience, but I have had friends and family whose life were ruined, but not by religion, rather, those who taught it in the wrong way. My entire family went atheist for several generations because nuns ruined my grandfather's childhood.
To me, religion is simply love of Christ and faith in Him. Hence "followerofChrist" not religion. I always counter people who ask why I don't go to church by saying it is Christians who make a church (it could two who gather in His name), rather than the church that makes the Christian.
"Then I do not believe you are a follower of Christ. Because your post shows no love for the Church."
I said I think some people are turned off to Christianity because many focus on who they can hate (always needing an enemy, which is human nature, not Christ's) rather than who they can love and who they can judge rather than who they can forgive. I believe those sentiments are very Christian. It doesn't matter if YOU think I am a followerofChrist or not. Only what Jesus knows is in my heart matters.
You may be a Christian, I don't know. I just don't think the attitudes of many who bash Keyes are very Christ-like.
Have a good day.
"You didn't mention the part where this person's parents cynically took advantage of the relationship for free labor, they booted him out."
The person was not booted out for being gay. It was ignored and denied. He was avoided for many years. No one took advantage of free labor in that situation, because no one could get him to work at all. But as far as Keyes, it is not unusual that he wouldn't accept his daughter's gayness until after many years. It is normal ion families that don't embrace homosexuality. It isn't like he didn't have time to think and pray on it and change his relationship with her, and accept her as she is. It is implied that he couldn't stand her until he needed free labor, which is a bad conclusion. My mom made me work when I was in high school for the family business and I accused her of giving birth to me so she could have a slave. I didn't realize then that my mom was the one who was the slave to me and my brother. Helping out didn't even make up for the investment she made in raising me. So if Maya worked for dad's campaign, she owed it to him, and incidentally, volunteered.
"Is this not a judgement on your part?"
I mentioned I was an atheist (and 18 years old) and revenge was very much on the table then.
"Unless there is something I'm missing from your narrative, the english translation of what happened is your friend got offended at being man-handled and did an obscene amount of damaged in revenge."
Man-handled? That's the word for physical violence. Shoving a 6 foot tall woman so hard she falls to the ground?
"It would seem to me even though you call yourself followerofchrist, you still give some approval to the action because you are choosing to rename the act in terms that blame the victim of your vandalism."
If you read my posts, you would have caught the part about my not being a Christian then. I became a Christian a little over a year ago. Yes, we vandalized his van, but I really don't regret it, though I should. I certainly would never do it again. Today I would have urged my friend to file battery charges.
I take exception to your sympathizing with a violent drug dealer and calling him a "victim." I'll answer to God for throwing poop in his van, but ye reap what ye sow. At 18 years old, what were we supposed to do? File charges and fear retaliation from a violent drug dealer? We did what seemed fitting at the time.
YOu do have to temper it with love.
When a child or an adult is the least lovable is usually when they need the MOST love.
Where you and I may not agree is that a child has NO wisdom. That's where the parents have to "live it" and help them grow in wisdom. In our house my daughter doesn't have a "choice" in being a Christian. She's happy yo be on with how we go about it.
"LOL -- would this be the same Dr. Keyes who took her free labor for months on end while raking in contributions from which to pay himself a fat salary?"
His daughter volunteered to help her dad. That is not "free labor." It's a labor of love since he gives to her too. How much free labor did she take advantage of when accepting free room and board (and other things) from mom and dad all those years? I should have read the entire story, but I assume he is or will pay her college tuition. Therefore, she would be contributing by helping him pay for it. Parents are not obligated past age 18, and after that they are giving free money to their kids.
Has anyone asked Alan and Jocelyn Keyes about this situation? Everyone is basing their opinions on what this 19 yr. old is saying her parents did to her. Does anyone think it's possible that her attitude about her parents might be a little skewed because of her decision to rebel against them, thus coloring her comments about anything they might have done?
I wonder if something happened to this girl when she was at the all-girls boarding school - (i.e. "chicken-hawked" by other lesbians....).
"You may be a Christian, I don't know. I just don't think the attitudes of many who bash Keyes are very Christ-like.
Have a good day."
I have been defending him. If I gave you the wrong impression, it's because I started generalizing off-topic about Christians who are too authoritarian with their kids at a time when they want to be independent. It is true that sometimes when a kid is pushed too hard one way, they go the other way. The 60's generation is a good example.
This is not to say Maya became a lesbian because of her upbringing. I am not one to think people go gay because of rebellion. There is some evidence that is it partially hormonal (not genetic). I am encouraged that she helped her dad on his campaign. He changed a little and accepted her (without accepting her lesbianism), and perhaps she has come to see his wisdom.
"Where you and I may not agree is that a child has NO wisdom."
Whether or not this is true does not nullify the fact that teenagers want to be independent and make their own choices.
"That's where the parents have to "live it" and help them grow in wisdom. In our house my daughter doesn't have a "choice" in being a Christian. She's happy yo be on with how we go about it."
That's a good thing, but many kids who are forced against their will to be Christians often rebel because they don't feel supported, or trusted to make their own spiritual decisions. Faith is very personal, and comes right from the heart and can't be forced from outside the heart. You can't force one to love Christ by forcing him to attend church. Christ doesn't look upon a church attendee and bless him because he was drug there, He looks upon those with "circumcized hearts" with favor, regardless of church attendance.
I have seen both ends of the spectrum and how you deal with this issue depends on the child's nature and personality type. A passive child will accept anything, while a dominant child won't. He has to come into it on his own. Hence, he is raised with full knowledge, but the decision to accept Christ as his personal savior is his decision and his alone because your relationship with God is between two people. The story of Saul is most inspiring in this respect. He rebelled and rebelled, but because of his personality type, it took an act of Christ to move his heart.
Well congratulations, it would seem your Lord has decreed it's time to take the training wheels off, cause you're fixin' to go t' school.
I mentioned I was an atheist (and 18 years old) and revenge was very much on the table then.
Your actions then are not at issue: it's your mitigating now.
Man-handled? That's the word for physical violence. Shoving a 6 foot tall woman so hard she falls to the ground?
Yup. You go to a bad man's house, eat a bad man's bread (or dope as it were), then whine about how the bad man treated you?
St. Augustine (at one time a truly famous bad-boy) was once asked "what is the worst sin you ever committed?" He answered by saying as a kid he once jumped an orchard fence, climbed a tree, ate the fruit, and what he couldn't eat he threw to the ground. Now he wasn't counting sin by how much damage he did to the farmer, and he wasn't saying he never did anything worse than that. What he was saying was at no time did he ever act out of more malice and selfishness.
Now he could have come up with all kinds of mitigating circumstances no doubt; the farmer was mean, there were plenty more trees, I was just a boy... etc., but he didn't do that. He, knowing his own heart better than anyone else, divined that as the blackest, most heinous, most treacherous moment in his life.
All your prattling about "taking her power" is just another way of blaming it on the farmer, or making "panties on the head" into "torture." He didn't kill her. He didn't maim her. He didn't rape her. He injured her pride, and that my FRiend is known as vanity.
Let me clue you in to a little trick many people use. They say things like "sometimes words hurt like fists." No, fists hurt like fists, but that's what is claimed when the petulant wish to punish words with fists. I dare say if your drug dealer had done as much damage to your friend as your friend did to the drug dealer, she would have needed an emergency room visit.
Yes, we vandalized his van, but I really don't regret it, though I should...I take exception to your sympathizing with a violent drug dealer and calling him a "victim."
Could the two be related? Count on it. It's easy to hate a publican. It's easy to hate a drug dealer. It's easy to hate a rich guy. But do they deserve any more injustice than you? Don't be surprised if during your walk you find G-d makes a lot more use of such people than he does of the dry, tasteless, shrivelled little souls content to bury their talent, and show up at church whenever the doors are open.
At 18 years old, what were we supposed to do? File charges and fear retaliation from a violent drug dealer?
You didn't seem too worried about retaliation if you'd been caught vandalizing his ride.
I missed part of your reply.
My daughter isn't the passive type! LOL! We also spank her when necessary. Ultimately it is a persoanl relationship and a choice however as parents we don't offer "choices". For example I don't explore other beliefs to see which one she wants to pursue. She can do that later when she is better grounded. The time to get to a person is when they are a child.
Good post!
I'm sure that this situation is very difficult for all of them and that judgments are being affected by the emotional turmoil. It just can't be easy!
Some time should help. ;-)
Golly jeepers, NJAPF, I don't even want to pretend I understand what that means!!!
I apologize for misunderstanding. Admittedly, it turned me off when you said you have a bias against fundamentalists earlier on in the thread. I haven't been following the discussion much since. But putting that aside...
It's interesting that there is evidence that homosexuality may be partially hormonal. From what little I've read about the subject, it often seems to be the result of childhood sexual abuse. I'd agree with you that it's most probably not due to something as "simple" as rebellion.
I hope Maya will be able to turn from the lifestyle and reconcile with her parents. The best thing we who care for the Keyes can do is pray for them. Surely the Lord wants everything good for their family. :-)
Most likely. My nephew was seduced in high school by a fellow student, who took advantage of a very low point in his life. Because of this, my nephew convinced himself he was a homosexual and proceeded to live the life. Unfortunately, he is now HIV positive. After the diagnosis, he came home, and left the life for a while, but I hear he's back into it, and has another fella. Disturbing, but I keep him in my prayers.
My guess is that Maya was likely lured into it by someone who tapped into her typical teenage rebelliousness, and that her parents didn't know about it until after he'd run for President.
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